The above person married James william Flint in 1912 and it states she was 19 years old and her father was Robert walter Clews.

Trying to find Alice on the 1911 census (not at address with James) and to try to confirm her birth was the one registered in West Bromwich with MMN Holder.

If anyone can help me solve her parensts be appreciated. I have not yet managed to find a Clews to Holder marriage but there are possibly loads of variants.

Search on Free BMD births for Cl*w*s Alice Maud between 1890 and 1895. You can then follow up what you find on GRO index for mmn
Dave

cheers dave, never thought of Clowes and barnsley does make more sense. just need to try and find her in the census now but no doubt another variant comes to mind.

FamilySearch.org has a family tree that claims this baptism in the records at this site is your Alice Maud:

SHIPLEY, Alice Maud Clowes (of 3 Brashaws Yard, born ~).
Baptised October 17, 1894, by W T Edginton at Holy Trinity, Darnall.
Parents name(s) are Eliza Agnes & Robert Walter (Collier).
Note: ~ Godparents: ~ :Page No 83 :Reg No 660

Father's forenames match the bride's fathers forenames at her 1912 marriage.

There are 26 public family trees at Ancestry with Alice Maud Clowes Shipley, none of which include a marriage record or a death record with a supporting source.

The 1911 census has Robert Walter & Eliza Agnes Shipley at 3 Bootle Street. Alice Maud is their oldest child (7 daughters & 1 son).

This could be the marriage record for the couple (freebmd.org.uk)
Marriages June quarter 1894
Clowes Eliza Agnes, Barnsley, 9c, 308
Shipley Robert Walter, Barnsley, 9c, 308

This Alice Maud’s birth could be (GRO)
CLOWES, ALICE MAUD mother’s maiden name -
GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 26

You would need to do your research to see whether this possibility is your Alice Maud's family.

Terry thank you. The marriage cert is on line hence father name being Robert. Definitely correct marriage because James William Flint is the father of Kenneth born 1927 who is the root of the tree. Suppose good old yorkshire accent strikes again hence name variant

Terry , yes it is beginning to make sense, she was Alice Maud Clews because she was born illegitimate so of course she assumed father that she actually grew up with was Robert Walter Clews when in fact it was shipley it is no wonder I could not find her for ages because I would never have used Clowes as a variant so it does show keep all options open.

I did wonder why ther was a West Midlands link but thanks to you and Dave at least that stopped me going down the wrong path.

John

The Shipley theory is claimed by family tree posters and not verified by me.

There was a Clews-Holder birth December quarter 1900, Ernest Clews, Sheffield. There was a 10 year old Ernest Clews, inmate, at Hollow Meadows Industrial School, Sheffield, in 1911, possibly indicating some impairment in family relationships.

Unless other Shipley family names also fall into place, the possibility of Ernest being connected might be worth exploring.

Can't understand why Robert Walter was given the name Clews at the daughter/stepdaughter's marriage. But then the first names Robert Walter fit. Sometimes hard to get absolute certainty.

According to the military history sheet for “James William Rotherham” “alias James Wm Flint”, 3/7283, he married Alice Maud Clews, spinster, Parish Church St Mary’s Sheffield. Witnesses were Frederick Jinks and Elsie Shipley.

There was an Elsie Shipley 15 in the household of Robert Walter Shipley & Eliza Agnes Shipley in 1911 along with Alice Maude Shipley 18 & 5 other children.

This swings the connection towards Shipley again.

Terry once again thank you for your input.

I do think the alice maud clews (clowes) with father Robert is correct.

If she new her father was called Robert and no doubt she assumed his surname was clews obviously not realising that she was born out of wedlock.

we definitely know that Eliza Agnes was her mother (Robert and Eliza are buried at Burncross Cemetery, see the post for Burncross)

When you found the Military sheets for James did you use the surname Rotherham or Flint?

James was also born out of wedlock and his mother married a Mr Rotherham hence that surname

Right study later, work beckons

"When you found the Military sheets for James did you use the surname Rotherham or Flint?"

I was searching for anything about Alice Maud Clews. They indexed relatives names on the record too. A child's name was on the military sheet; and the mother Mrs Rotherham.

As a by the way, and a lesson in being wary, there are family trees on Ancestry that claim Robert Rotherham / Flint died in France in WW1!