Bit of a sensitive post. I'm looking for an uncle who was possibly illegally adopted in Sheffield in 1949. I know his name, date of birth and death also his wife's death etc.

His name was Howard David Snape or Nesbitt, his wife was sylvia Hambleton. He died in 2019.

I cannot find any records of his birth, adoption or where he may be buried or even cremated.

I'd love to find out what became of Howard, find out about the life he lived. If anyone can help at all I'd be so grateful.

Stephanie
You should purchase their marriage certificate to see what he said about the identity of his father.

Why do you say his name was Snape or NESBITT?

To find ouyt about burial/cremation info for deaths as recent as 2019/2020 you need to contact Sheffield Bereavement Services.
Dave

Hi Dave

I have their marriage from ancestry but ita just their two names.

The snape or Nesbitt comes from what family can recall him being called by.

I did contact that service about 2 months ago and no reply.

Honestly when I say I have tried everything I truly have

Steph,
If you purchase the Marriage Certificate from GRO you will get much more info than is available on Ancestry.
On the full certificate there is name, age,address father name and father occupation for each of bride and groom
You have to order it from GRO, it costs £12.50 and takes less than 2 weeks to arrive (by snail mail)
There is no other way to get this information.

What makes you think he was ILLEGALLY adopted?
Dave

Hi Dave

Okay I'll try that again and see what it brings up, problem is the questions they ask when ordering I don't really have the answers or even if they are correct ones.

The Baby (Howard) was not allowed to come home with his birth mother (no reason why this had to happen other than a spiteful controlling family). Said birth mother never signed any kind of paperwork allowing Howard to stay in Sheffield be adopted etc.

All the answers you need are in here:
Marriage March Quarter 1974
SNAPE HOWARD D HAMBLETON SHEFFIELD Vol 2D Page 326
HAMBLETON SYLVIA O SNAPE SHEFFIELD 2D 326

Dave

Hi Dave

Thanks I've ordered the certificate, fingers crossed this mystery will be solved

Sylvia Olive Snape the wife of Howard David Snape died 20.10.2020 according to the probate records.
Phone the City Road services they should be able to tell you were they were created or buried.
this may answer some of your questions

Hi Nicholas

Thank you for replying, I've have contacted every place I can in Sheffield and either there's no reply or no information for me.

Not even an obituary for Howard just sylvia.

I have now ordered a marriage certificate for his marriage to Sylvia in the hope of finding out who his "father" was.

It's just so disheartening hitting brick wall after brick wall. He has a place on our family tree and I'd love to fill it with facts/stories om his life.

Be careful ! If a marriage certificate does give a fathers name it may not be his biological father

Hi Nicholas

I know his birth father. His birth family start with my grandparents.

Hi Denise

Thanks for your reply. Oh that address is not the address I have for them, I only have 10 Nestfield way

Nesfield Way is in Firth Park Ward.

There is a public member tree on Ancestry which has Howard David Snape and his wife Sylvia Olive Hambleton. It claims that Howard's parents were Josephine Gillespie and William George Ferguson Kelly. It looks as though the owner of the tree should know what he is talking about because he has a specific birthdate in Feb 1949 for Howard (but no place of birth) and photos of Howard and his supposed biological parents. The parents were from Northern Island and it is claimed that much later (1964) the same couple had a son (in Northern Ireland) who was brother to Howard. It also seems that the parents never married, but both died in Northern Ireland.
Curiouser and curiouser.
I assume that Howard (whatever his real name was) somehow came to be brought up in Sheffield with his new name and presumably with a new couple called Snape.
Dave

Hi dave

That's a relatuve of mines tree, we recently found eachother. The Josephine etc is my family that's my grandmother etc.

It's a very long but sad story but basically she was made to go to England to have Howard then she was told in no uncertain terms was Howard allowed to come home with her. Her family were very wicked and they done that

The death record for Howard David Snape says his DOB was 21 Feb 1949. If you look over to the baptism records on this site and search on forenames Howard David, leaving the surname blank, there is a Howard David with exactly the same date of birth. Is this just a coincidence?

Heths

In fact, Dave you mention the name Gillespie. The Kennedy baptism on this site links to a GRO birth record which has MMN Gillespie....

Hi Heather

Thank you for your reply. Where exactly do you suggest I look? I'm not so good at technology lol

Hi Steph,

If you look over to the column on the left you´ll see Parish records. Click on that and select baptisms. You can find it in there, here it is:

KENNEDY, Howard David (of 1 Ct 9 H Oborne St, born 1949-02-21).
Baptised March 13, 1949, by S S V Gaden at Holy Trinity, Wicker.
Parents name(s) are Josephine & Samuel (Fitter).
Note: ~
Godparents: i :Page No 54 :Reg No 483

The GRO record:

First name(s) Howard D
Last name Kennedy
Volume 2D
Birth registration year 1949
Page 316
Registration quarter 1
Mother's maiden name Gillespie
District Sheffield

Heths

Hi Heather

Oh my goodness all them names fit! However when I went to search like you said it said it couldn't perform my search due to capacity

Steph, you need to purchase (another £12.50) that birth certificate for Howard David Kennedy. I expect you will find that it will say he went on to be adopted.
Dave

Hi Dave

Oh I will be ordering that. Would just love to have seen what Heather was directing me to but when I tried to search, it told me something about full capacity and wouldn't search

Try again. Seems to be an intermittent problem
Dave

Has anyone still got the original image for that Kennedy baptism? The transcription has an i after the word godparents. I’m wondering if the godparents names might be relevant to the Snape / Nesbitt story.

Heths

Hi Heather

I've ordered his birth certificate. I finally got viewing the baptism records. I'd love to know who were the godparents as this is actually a very sad story, especially for Josephine (Howard's birth mother) and my grandmother.

I want to thank you so very much Heather as it just took you finding that baptism to kick start a memory that has now solved this whole mystery.

No amount of thank yous could ever be enough for what you have done.

Steph
Is this the Samuel Kennedy named as father of Howard David?

Marriage June Quarter 1949
Kennedy Samuel R Smith Sheffield 2d 396
Smith Florence Kennedy Sheffield 2d 396

Right time, right place and a good explanation why he would have turned his back on Josephine and her baby. I wonder if this Samuel was a fitter?

Perhaps Josephine went to Sheffield to work and got pregnant there.

Dave

Hi Dave

Josephine and Samuel kennedy were married in Belfast I have the certificate.

Howard was a result of an affair she had with wiliam George kelly (my grandfather).

The only reason she went to Sheffield is because her family sent her away out of shame. From what has been gathered she went to one of her aunts had the baby clearly had him baptised and returned to belfast where she went on to marry my grandfather (William george kelly).

Hi Steph

I've emailed you a snip of the Baptism record. One of the Godparents - Peggy Snape!

Denise

Hi Denise

Oh my goodness! That name doesn't mean anything to me, in fact a Peggy was never brought up. I honestly thought it would of been one of her sisters.

Thank you so very much for sending me that it honestly means so much.

Steph

From Free BMD.

Deaths Dec 1970
SNAPE Peggy 2Je1902 Sheffield 2d 731

Dave

Hi Dave

Funny you finding that as when I searched this morning that was my first result.

I'm counting down the days until Howard's Marriage certificate arrives lol, and that will give me the father's name, then hopefully this mystery will finally be solved.

Steih

So Peggy did not marry and also unless it is me the death is not showing on FMP

CORRECTION
Sorry no EDIT function. The name you are looking for is MARGARET YOUNG wth father Arthur

On the 1949 electoral roll (I have looked at this today) at court 1 house 9 Oborne Street lived Herbert & Peggy Snape

Hi Nicholas

Had a search there and can't seem to see it. Where did you search?

Steph

In the local studies at Sheffield Library

Hi Nicholas

Ah that will be why I couldn't find it then.

Steph

Good afternoon everyone, small update for you all.

I recieved Howard's marriage certificate and the father is stated as Herbert Snape.

I've further searched this name aswell as his potential wife "peggy" but again I've hit a dead end.

I think peggy is a shortened name. Searched the address that's associated with those names and nothing.

out of curiosity, who were the witnesses on Howard's marriage cert does that give you any clues?

Steph
The death record for Peggy Snape in 1970 gives her birthdate as 2nd June 1902.
On the 1939 Register there is a Peggy Snape in service in Easington: she is married and her birthdate is 2nd June 1904. That has to be her.

Does the marriage cert for Howard state that his father Herbert Snape is deceased?
Dave

Hi John

No the witnesses were a dead end aswell unfortunately

Hi Dave

The father Herbert was not deceased at time of marriage.

Steph, Sometimes, when the father is deceased, but not always, it says that on the marriage cert. However, if it does not say that you cannot assume that he was still alive.
I made an error in my previous post. I said Peggy Was in service in Easington. She was on unpaid domestic duties, so not in service. Sh is with a large Hogan family and there is one redacted record after her. Could that have been her child?
Dave

Hi Dave

Brides father was deceased and it had that written on it.

Howard's "father" Herbert was just down as retired.

Howard was not Peggy or Herbert's child legally.

It's just mind boggling why there is no marriage between Herbert and peggy, nor is there any records on them

The address they had was Court 1 House 9 in Sheffield none of them names sync with that address

Steph

Peggy that was the godparent, how positive are we that Peggy was a variant e the birth and death that has been found is not the godparent.

Steph, have you received the birth certificate of Howard David Kennedy ?
Dave

Hi Dave

Yes I did, birth certificate had Josephine Kennedy as his mother (my grandmother Josephine) father was left blank.

Didn't have anything else on it bar the date and the address she was staying at at that time if birth.

Steph

What was the address?
Dave

Court 1 House 9 oborne street

If your information is correct that Josephine was sent to her aunt to have the baby then there is a strong implication that Peggy Snape was her aunt.
Because the birth certificate does not contain the word Adopted then Howard was not adopted (by anyone).

Unfortunately it would seem that Herbert Snape and Peggy did not marry, but apparently lived together as man and wife. Clearly they brought up Howard as their own son, and he married in their surname.
Dave

It was a rumour that he was adopted into the family, however with all that's emerged that isn't the case, as none of the names from his baptism ie. Snape ect mean anything to us as a family.

Recieving his birth certificate proves he wasn't legally adopted.

Josephine it was said was sent to stay with an aunt when she became pregnant but again that clearly wasn't the case.

My grandmother (Josephine) never got over her son being cruelly taken from her.

One of those heartbreaking stories that should never of happened.

There is a Marriage for Herbert Snape to Cynthia Margaret Dooley in 1971 he was born on 17.5.1908 and died in the last quarter of 1977 Cynthia Margaret was born 28.3.1934 and died in1993

Hi Nicholas

As always thank you fir the information, I will get on with looking into that name.

Steph

It says they lived as Man and wife, so could they have married ie Scotland then when peggy died in 1970 Herbert married Cynthia

Would a death cert in 1970 give the mother's maiden name?

My only other thinking was that Peggy and Herbert were brother and sister

Steph, Peggy Snape has a death registration in 1970. You should buy that certificate because from about 1969 death certs began to include date and place of birth, and maiden name and any other pseudonyms a woman had. It will also tell you who registered the birth and their relationship to her.
Dave

I have been to the archives and the local studies today

Peggy alias Martha died on 2.12.1970 and was cremated at city Road crematorium on the 8th
Herbert died on 19.10.1977 and was also cremated at City Road on 24.10.1977 Cynthia Margret was cremated at City Road on 4.10.1993 date of death unknown.

a death notice for Peggy says Mother of Thelma & Howard Mother in law of Arthur and Grandmother of a granddaughter and Grandson who's names I will not tell you on this post as they are probably still alive. For Herbert it is the same but adds Sylvia to the in-laws There is no death notice for Cynthia. I have seen a post earlier from David who says Thelma and Arthur Young were living at Oborne Street I have looked at Parish records and found Thelma June Snape born 30.6.1935 and Baptised 4.9.1935 there address was 5 Luke Lane (that is Wadsley near Hilsbrough) the parents are down as Herbert and Margret

Nicholas, absolutely brilliant.
So the only thing left to find is Peggy’s maiden name. The baptism record you found for Thelma J Snape says she was born 30th June 1935. There is no civil birth record for a Thelma J Snape in 1935. However there is one in Q3 for a Thelma J KENT and mmn is also KENT. This presumably means she was registered as illegitimate. So Peggy Snape’s maiden name must be KENT.
Dave

Hi Nicholas

Thank you very much for looking into this for me, it is very much appreciated.

I had a search on Cynthia Dooley but something just didn't feel like I had the right 'mother" for Howard.

I will look into Martha and Thelma and keep you updated.

Once again thank you so very much

Steph

Hi Dave

Both yourself and Nicholas are just amazing and I'm so very grateful to you both for helping me with this.

I will look into the surname Kent and see where it brings me.

Steph

Because I'm from Northern Ireland I can't see the records you guys would see so searching brings little to no results for me

Hi guys I have an update.

So thanks to Nicholas and Dave I believe I have solved this mystery.

Thelma J Kent was born to a Mabel Kent, father unknown. Thelma was adopted by Martha and Herbert Snape in 1935.

Mabel doesn't seem to be related to Herbert and Martha.

So from what I can gather Herbert and Martha Snape adopted Thelma in 1935 and then went into adopt Howard in 1949. I even found a picture of Thelma on her wedding day to her husband Arthur Young.

Even more incredible I have found a photo of "Peggy Snape" that's bound to be Martha isn't it? Just using a nickname?

Do you guys know how I would go about seeing the obituary for Martha (Peggy) as I'd love it just to confirm she was Howards adoptive mother.

Steph,
try this link
https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/libraries-archives/archive-local-studies-services

I understand they offer an Obituary look up service.
Dave

Good morning

Thanks to everyone involved this mystery has been solved!

"Peggy" is Martha Chambers and she and Herbert Snape adopted Thelma J Kent in 1935, (Thelma's biological mother was Mabel Kent).

They then went on to adopt Howard in 1949.

Martha Chambers was Josephine's (Howard s biological mother) aunt who she was sent to stay with when she became pregnant.

I still believe the adoption wasn't legal as I'll explain below in the last part of this whole story:

Josephine (Howards biological mother) was married and had an affair with Howards biological father (William George Kelly), she was sent to her aunt's in England to have the baby. William was to go over there to be with Josephine and the baby but family members on both sides intercepted letters they wrote to each other and both parties thought the other had abandoned them.

Josephine had Howard and I presume stayed looking after him for a short time, she then was to return to Northern Ireland to sort out housing etc and once she was settled she could send for Howard and he would come to live with her.

Once she was reunited with William and both found out about the letter interception they decided to reconcile moving in together etc Howard was sent for and Josephine was told she wasn't allowed him back. She spent the rest of her life blaming herself and even died hating herself for what happened.

Steph
So Peggy was his aunt. That now makes complete sense.
You have the birth certificate for Howard David Kennedy. If he had been adopted under a legal process then his birth certificate would have written upon it the word ADOPTED. This was and still is a LEGAL requirement. It that case there would be a second birth record in the name of the adoptive parents. However that record would be in a secret file at the GRO and you would not be able to find it by searching or by request to the GRO. That record, if it exists, would only be accessible to Howard himself (through a legal process) under the freedom of information act.
If the birth certificate you have does not say ADOPTED then there was no legal adoption carried out for him.
In that case he was simply brought up by his aunt and Herbert in their name.
Dave

correction. No Edit function
"so Peggy was JOSEPHINE's aunt."

Hi Dave

No Peggy (Martha) was Josephine's aunt.

No birth certificate doesn't state adopted so yea my instincts are correct that it wasn't legal.

The name Kennedy on Howards Birth and Baptism records is the surname of Josephine s husband she had an affair on, family seemed to think it was less shameful to put him as the father instead of William who was his true father.

Steph,
Just to be clear, just because there was no legal adoption process does not mean that what was done was illegal. Within the UK adoption law, once Howard had been with his de facto adoptive parents (Herbert and Peggy) for 2 years then they had the right to obtain a legal adoption order for him : permission of the biological parents was no longer required. Therefore once they had him for 2 years they had the legal right to refuse his return to Josephine.
Dave

I have seen the photo of Thelma June on her Wedding day also another 2 photos on ancestry of Arthur one on his wedding day the other taken a few years previously Arthur lived from
4.1.1926-19.4.2006 Thelma lived from 5.6.1935-9.8.2017. The 1939 index gives Peggy or what ever her name was being born 2.6.1904 but I think that should be 1902 2 names from were Peggy was are not shown on the list it just say the record is closed I would guess one of these is Thelma's

Were Peggy Chambers parents William J born around 1860 and Emily born around 1862 did they live at 17 Coolderry Street St George Antrim

I have also found a bit about Mabel Kent she was born in 1908 the daughter of Percy & Alice Kent and live at 85 Buttermere Road Abbeydale Sheffield. Percy & Alice are buried in Abbey Lane Cemetery.

Hi Nicholas

Yes I think the two records that are closed is Thelma and Howard.

No peggys aka Martha's parents were Elizabeth Barron and Robert Chambers. Martha was born in 1901 in Mullaghglass in Ireland.

Yes I read about Mabel and her family.

Steph

Martha (Peggy) was born on the 2nd of June 1902 in Mullaghglass, her parents were Elizabeth Barron born 1870 and Robert James Chambers born 1864.

When Martha was 9 the family moved to Belfast (shankill) I presume for work. After that record in Belfast there is nothing else in relation to her.

It's unknown how she came to move to Sheffield or why.

Hi Dave

Ah okay I didn't know that about the two year thing.

I can one hundred percent say that Josephine would of sent for him when he was months old.

Josephine would never of signed any paperwork as she wanted her son returned to her.

I guess what happened it like you said after the two years they would of been able to keep him.

Hi Dave

Your right my heads melted with all the dates lol.

Yea I've no idea who the Hogans are but at least the mystery on Howard is solved

Steph

Steph, I thought we had found everything but there is even more.
On Ancestry there is a public member family tree which has more info on Martha Chambers (b 2 June 1901). It seems she had an illegitimate son Norman in Belfast in 1924 who died in Belfast in January 1926.
So Martha must have gone to England after that.
The tree owner has nothing on her after that so it will be of mutual interest if you contact him.
He is a very active member who says he is happy to help others so he should answer a message.
Dave

Hi Dave

What a coincidence! I found that info out same day as you lol.

Yes I've been in touch with Ernest (the family tree member) and he's my 2nd cousin twice removed.

He doesn't have much information on that side of the family unfortunately but I'm more than happy with everything I've got.

I came to figure out the mystery on Howard and with all this forum members help that has been completed and ill be forever grateful.

Stephanie
I have seen your post on the other website if you enter picture Sheffield and when it opens put in Pitsmoor there are nearly One thousand photos of Pitsmoor two of them are of Oborne Street

Hi Nicholas

Oh great thank you! Me and technology aren't the best if friends lol

Steph, according to GRONI free search facility a Herbert Snape married in Northern Ireland in the period 1927/8. In the same period a Martha Chambers also married.
Dave

An address for Howard & Sylvia is 89 Rolletson road Firth Park that is very near Nesfield Way

Hi Dave

Yeah that's possibly when they married and then decided to move to Sheffield.

Hi Nicholas

Oh okay that's a new address I haven't heard about. I found out where they lived when they were first married and again the address in Westfield.

I'm just so happy to have this puzzle all worked out and put ti rest.

Steph

Hi Steph Ive just had an interesting conversation with my son who found your posts on the internet. I am or was Margaret Young and I am presuming you have seen my ancestry website family tree. I would be happy to get in touch with you privately to fill in some of the gaps you and I may have in our families.