After lots of help from people on this site we came to the conclusion that the Johnn Henry Whiteley I was after was born in 1862 and whose parents are named as above.

(on his mc it states father was Henry but we have now ruled this out)

I am now returning to this tree and trying to once again find a marriage for the above but as yet to no avail. I can only assume Mary was a widow at the time of her marriage to William and used her birth name when registering John Henry birth.

If anyone could try and shed some light on how to find the above marriage woild be most appreciated.

regards

John

John

So we don't all duplicate effort can you tell us where you've already searched, what parameters you've used, and anything that might have looked okay but you've already ruled out.

Denise

I tried using Donaldson to whiteley on free bmd incuding phonetic surname search and nothing. I also used whiteley to Mary Ann with nothing. The only thing I have not checked is the possibility it could have been in Scotland.

It might be also that they just never married.

John

Hi John,

RE:
The marriage cert you are quoting. A date would be helpful along with where it took place.

Elaine.

John

Yes they may not have married. As advised previously if you're having a problem finding a record you need to widen the search catergories raher than just searching for marriages. You often need to go 'out and round' to get answers.

If you think Mary Ann could have been married before then check out Mary Ann Donaldson marriages. Then follow the trails of any married surnames looking at what children any marriages may have produced and where any census records 'end' for those families. Apply those dates and any children to any census records you have with William and Mary Ann together - looking at birth dates/surnames/mmn.

That may or may nor help identify if any are your Mary Ann and the status of any children, which in turn may or may not tell you if they were likely to have married at any point.

Denise

Thanks all, will get my thinking cap on again and see what I can come up with. I might check the gro to see if anymore whiteley donaldson combination to see if that helps solve things.

John

just looked at GRO and not found any whiteley whitely to donaldson combination. I am now wondering was her name not Donaldson but was something else and the registra mis heard her.

John

John,

If you look at the GRO index for births there is only "ONE" John Henry Whiteley born in 1962.

MMN Batho registered in West Derby & Toxteth Park.

Are you sure you have the correct year of his birth?
Elaine

Hi Elaine

It will be Q3 1862 Sheffield, John Henry Whitely, MMN Donaldson

Heths

I had a feeling that would be it........ I need a push every so often. LOL.

Thanks Elaine.

That's why I suggested looking for marriages for Mary Ann Donaldson (Sheffield) and working forward from there.

If she had been married before she may have had children who then went to live with her and William. So they wouldn't be on GRO as Whiteley/Donaldson, but they may be on a census as Whiteley.

Or, she may have had other children with William but if not married they may have been registered in her previous married surname with mmn Donaldson or no mmn!!

When all else fails just accept that it was not uncommon for couples to live together as man and wife without going through a formal marriage ceremony. There is no legal penalty for that. However they would need to register any children to avoid penalty.
Dave

"the Johnn Henry Whiteley I was after was born in 1862"

What else do you have on him? For example have you him in 1871?

JHW died in 1907 aged 45. he had married in 1882 aged 22 so I assumed born in 1860 but no JHW born 1860.

The marriage cert says his father was Henry but I have not found a relevant birth for that,

not found him in 1871 but in 1881 he was a boarder so no help from that.

John

So presumably you've ruled out the John Whitley b 1862 Sheffield on the 1871 census living with William Whitley, Mary Ann Whitley and other siblings?

Denise

Denise, I have not found this, I was looking at 1871 census for ages using Henry for father from MC I shall look again at 1871 to see what it shows.

John

Sorry John, the thread starts by saying you'd now identified the parents as William and Mary Ann (so ruled out Henry as the father). So I assumed you'd then researched again, this time using William, but ruled this one out.

Denise, no I have not ruled this out because of a post that has been deleted due to a clear out by admin. Just thought more info on line might have come about.

Beginning to think its an error by the vicar but I am still open to somewhere there is a birth with a father Henry its just finding him. My next search is going to look to see if there is a birth for a Henry John Whiteley.

John

Ancestry has 2 sets of records for the 1 October 1882 marriage between John Henry Whiteley, table blade forger 22 & Sarah Ann Taylor 24 at the “parish church”. He of 20 West John Street and she of 8 West John Lane. The witnesses were Thomas and Eliza Booking.

One is the conventional church record with 2 a page.

The other is vertical pages that do not include the same detail, with space for 9 records. Some have the dates of banns (not in this case). Most, not all, have a “married” date in the “remarks” column.

In the latter record the name record for the groom is unusual. In every other case I browsed the names are within defined margins. In this case “John” is outside the margin and in lighter pen than the other details. Might not be significant, but it might imply that the “John” in the name was an addition. Maybe on the day, maybe later.

I’m wondering if the groom was generally known as Henry.

There also a column for “when received”. In this case it was 6th September. I suspect it is a record of applications to conduct the marriage ceremony, and when done, the marriage date was entered to complete the record

Terry,

That is an awesome find regarding the John outside and in a different pen.

That is definitely the correct marriage you have found as I have got the certificate but the other page I have not got.

I wonder then like you suggest he was born Henry and John was agged like you also suggest at a later date so as not to get confused between father and son.

I shall therefore have a look on 1871 census for a Henry Whitely with a father henry and a henry Whiteley on the GRO circa 1860 birth.

You have opened up a new can of worms for me to look at over the coming days etc so we could at last be onto a winner.

Just a pity in 1881 he was a boarder.

Thanks again Terry for your valuable input.

John

Could your John Whitley have married Mary Ellen Bamforth 4 April 1882 at St Silas church, Sheffield. His father was William fork grinder, John was also illiterate and sign with an X.

Barry, thank you for your suggestion,

No my JOhn Henry Whiteley married Sarah Ann Taylor that is 100% because I have got all their children as one of the children married the sister of my grandfather.

John

Hi John, I think the only thing left is to send for the birth certificate of the Sheffield one to confirm you have the right birth. It is entirely possible that the GRO have made an error in the listing?