Hello can anyone please tell me the witnesses that would be listed on the marriage certificate of my grandparents please :
Emma Bayliss married John Thomas Goodwin in Oct to Dec 1939 Sheffield it was at Mary’s church bramall lane . Thank you

Any any details on my grandmas parents Emma Bayliss born apr-jun 1920 says mothers name Allen but we can’t find any first name of her mother - thanks

The 1921 census shows Emma at 97 Allen St with her father James and his family. Her mother is only listed as C. L. Bayliss aged 28. We know she died before the 1939 register was compiled, because James was a widower by then. Searching the death index brings up a Caroline L. Bayliss, death registered Q1 1938 age 44. This leads to a marriage in 1918 between James Bayliss and Caroline L. Chambers. If you look over in our parish records over to the left you’ll find details of Caroline’s first marriage. 9th April 1911 at St Simon’s, Caroline Lilian Allen and George William Chambers.

You might need to buy the marriage certificate to find out who Emma’s witnesses were. I can’t see that marriage online yet.

Heths

23 December 1939
Leonard Steel & Winifred Marshall

Thank you so much this is fantastic and appreciated from myself and my cousin - many thanks xx

Morning Heths - I have searched the Sheffield burials for a Caroline Allen - no details available could it Because this wasn’t indexed as yet ? - would records indicate if she was buried ? X thanks

Thank you x

Hi Amanda

Caroline was buried at City Rd. The details are in our burial records section. She’s listed as Caroline Lilian Baylis (with just one S)

Heather

Thank you heather I will look this up x intersting just one S and not double S I assume a spelling error when it was recorded at the time x

Hi Hearher would you be able to tell me on the census who was listed at that time please which would have included Caroline and I believe 3 daughters ( my grandma was Emma Bayliss ) X she always talked about her sister Phylis and Clara but we have no details . Thank you if you could help x

George William Chambers died on 3rd July 1916. Killed in Action in France.

On his war records it also lists the names of his tewo daughters and their dates of birth.

John

buried/commemorated at Puchevillers British Cemetery.

Wow thank you this is wonderful news to discover

Thanks John what are the names and DOB. Of his daughters please ? Thanks

Hello John thank you - can you tell me the name of his daughters please and also I checked the war cemetery mentioned below and he doesn’t come up on the search for that cemetery can you help me ?

Amanda, go onto the Commenwealth War Graves Commission website (CWGC)

Click on search war dead input Chambers and in the initials box put G W

Click the box for WWI and click search and his details should come up.

His daughters Clara b 20th May 1911 and Elizabeth 4th April 1914

John

Thank you John just on CWGC now and can find his record . But I can’t see his daughter’s details ? Where do I click for those thank you

His daughters details are on a subscription website

Ok thank you

Hi Amanda

1921 census - head of household was Walter Bayliss, age 49, widower. Forge labourer, out of work. Last employer was Hadfields Steel Works in Tinsley. With him were:
T.W. Bayliss, son, widower aged 27 years 9 months. Also forge labourer, out of work, last employer Hadfields.
James Bayliss, son, married aged 26. Forge labourer for Jonas & Colver steel works.
Ernest Bayliss, son, 18 years 10 months old, single. General labourer, out of work, last employer Jonas & Colver, Bessemer St.
C.L. Bayliss, daughter in law, aged 28, married, housewife.
Emma Bayliss, granddaughter aged 1 year 3 months.
Clare Chamber, stepdaughter aged 10 years and 1 month. At school full time.
Everyone in the house was born in Sheffield.

1939 register at 9 Hill St
James Bayliss, 8 Sep 1896, widower, general labourer.
Ada Atkinson (surname crossed out and changed to Bayliss) 11 May 1884, widow, office cleaner.
Emma Bayliss (surname crossed out, changed to Goodwin) 29 March 1920, single, maker of cutlery.
Phyllis Bayliss, 23 Jan 1924, box maker.
Joan Bayliss, 22 Dec 1928, at school.

Heths

Oh wow this is amazing thank you we certainly have plenty to look into here - this is the most wonderful help and me and my cousin thank you from the bottom of our hearts - much appreciated - Amanda and Jane xx

To complete the picture on Elizabeth Chambers born 1914. Her burial is in our burials over to the left. She died aged 15 months in 1915.
Dave

Oh thank you we assumed she had died x thanks for this wonderful to piece that together xx

Thank John - I can find the grave on the index thank you - could I ask what removed from pitsmoor parish means which is on the notes ? We can see it’s a shared parish grave but confused wha that note could mean - any clues ? X

The parish where she died was different to the parish she was buried in. So her boby was moved form one parish to the other for burial. If that makes sense

Yes makes sense now - thanks for that x

There was also another Bayliss child with MMN Allen : James, born in 1932. Sadly he died aged only 3 weeks. His burial is also on this site.

Heths

Oh my goodness thank you for this extra info x so this is another baby or Caroline and James ? The ones who had my grandma Emma Bayliss in 1920 ? X

Heather or Dave, I think I have found Caroline in 1901 and 1911 (need another pair of eyes please)

It states she was born in Conisborough, from the GRO index Caroline Lily Allen MMN Fisher birth in the Doncaster RD but has tewo entries one in 1892 and one in 1894. would the second one have been after parents married?

John

Hi Amanda - yes, the baby James would have been a child of Caroline and James, so a full sibling of Emma.

@ John - Caroline was 9 in the 1901 census, and 19 in April 1911 (census and marriage.) That would indicate birth ca 1892. I’d go with MMN Fisher though. Looking at the siblings who were with her in 1901, at least two of them also have MMN Fisher. Caroline’s marriage record says her father was called Harry. I couldn’t find a marriage for a Harry Allen to a Fisher but there’s a possible one 1888 Doncaster between Elizabeth Fisher and Henry Allen.

Heths

Thank you everyone for you time with helping us xx very much appreciated x

Hi Heths , I have found the burial records on the index of a Henry Allen (burial 30th October ) and a Mary Elizabeth Allen (burngreave cemetery grave 4293 section JJ - have I found the grave of Caroline’s parents we are discussing in the thread ? Amanda x

Heths, just wondering could the first caroline have died and the second one they said on census returns made her older then she was ie went by the 1892 birth.

John

Amanda
The burial record you found is not the correct Allen family for you. The Mary Elizabeth Allen was 80 when she died in 1957. Therefore she was only 11 when Elizabeth Fisher married William Allen in 1888.
There is an immense amount of info available on your great grandparents James Bayliss and his wife Caroline Lilian formerly Chambers nee Allen.
I recommend that you take up a subscription with Find My Past. They offer a 14 day free trial period to new subscribers. You can take that up and then cancel the subscription before the end of the 14 days and you will get all the records for free.
The most detailed document is the military papers of George William Chambers, Caroline’s first husband. They married in 1911 when she was about 8 months pregnant with Clara and had a second child Elizabeth in April 1914. At the outbreak of WW1 in September 1914 George immediately volunteered and joined the 8th battalion Yorks and Lancs. On 10 July 1915 he was confined to barracks for 4 days for disobeying an order.This was in Borden, Hampshire. His daughter Elizabeth died on 15 July and was buried on 19th. There is no indication that he had leave so it would appear he did not attend the funeral.
He arrived in France on 27th August 1915.
In June 1916 there is a letter from the army paymaster to George’s CO saying that George has requested that the weekly payment to his wife from his wages should be stopped because she was co-habiting with a man called Frank Easy in Rotherham. His request was granted but payment of his daughter’s allowance would continue to be passed to his wife so long as Clara lived with her.

Sadly On 2nd July 1916 George was wounded at the bloody battle of Albert on the Somme. Gunshot wounds to left side of chest. He was taken to the Casualty Clearing Station at Puchevillers where he died the following day.
There is a.letter, hand written by Caroline in 1918, about the time she married James Bayliss, in which she refers to her claim for Widows pension. She did not get it. She did however receive all George’s personal effects and his medals.
Following this it is rather surprising that Caroline was buried in 1938 by her first mother in law Clara Chambers.
I also note that James Bayliss is already co-habiting in 1939 with the widow Ada Atkinson who he married in 1942. She died in 1955 and he immediately found another widow Mary Nutt. They did not marry but she died in the name of Mary Bayliss in 1960. There is a probate record for her to James. There is also a probate record for James in 1965 to a Mary McCabe and he is buried with Mary Bayliss Nutt.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave”
Dave

Oh my goodness wow yes thank you I will take up a subscription but think I need a lay down to take this all in - this is the most intersting and exciting story we never even expected to unfold ! I am speechless and super excited to read all of this - I can’t thank you enough we are eternally grateful as as newbies to this we would have no idea how to even begin to find this info - thank you so much is there is so much to take in - wow !!!! Much love and thank you xx Amanda

Amanda, to complete the Bayliss saga, Mary McCabe was the married daughter of Mary Bayliss Nutt. Strange that she did the probate on James Bayliss, and buried him, rather than one of his own. children.
Note that when you get access to Find My Past you can look up all your relatives in all the censuses and in the 1939 Register as well as the military papers of George W Chambers.
If you have any trouble understanding those military papers please just ask. They are full of military jargon and acronyms.
You should also familiarise yourself with Free BMD website and the GRO Index (you must register but there is no subscription and it is free to use)
Good luck in your searches
Dave

Oh my goodness thanks Dave this is be the most brilliant saga / story we never even expected !!! WOW. Thank you yes me and my cousin are planning time to set aside as this really has unfolded a spider web with all the information we have - could be a great Netflix series couldn’t it ! Much appreciated for all the time and efforts from you all . Amanda x

Amanda
I need to make a correction. The James Bayliss buried with Mary Bayliss Nutt in 1965 was not your great grandfather. Your James Bayliss lost his second wife Ada in Sheffield in 1955. He then died in Ashbourne in 1980 (from Free BMD).

Deaths Sep 1980
BAYLISS JAMES 8SE1896 ASHBOURNE 6 15

There is no doubt because his birth date of 8 Sep 1896 checks out with that given for him in the 1939 register when Emma was with him.

My apologies for the error.
Dave

Thank you dave - no problem at all it’s all very terribly complicated the bayliss web isn’t it ! Thanks for letting me know very kind and much appreciated xx

Dave - are we able to find where he is buried is it on the index ?

Amanda, the burial indexes on this site only cover burials in the Sheffield area and no he does not show up in there.
You could try enquiring at Cityroad crematorium. Their records in our index stop at 1951 so it is possible that both Ada and James were cremated there.
Dave

Brilliant - thank you so much for this

From the Derby Daily Telegraph of 1st September 1980
DEATHS - BAYLISS - on August 28th 1980 at St Oswald’s Hospital, Ashbourne, James Bayliss aged 83 years of Kenilworth Avenue, Derby, dearly beloved father, grandfather and great-grandfather. Funeral Thursday service and cremation 9.15am at Markeaton Crematorium. Flowers may be sent to Co-operative Funeral Service, 73/75 Normanton Rd

Heths

Oh wow Heths this is just amazing thank you ! What a story unfolded for the a Bayliss it’s been such a journey this week - amazing xx