Tom Hinchliffe married Elizabeth Best, I believe, some time between 1891 and 1907 yet for a number of years I have not been able to find their marriage and am still looking! They also had 5 children according to the 1911 census of which 2 passed over. So far I have only been able to find 4 of the 5 and am still looking for the 5th!

The evidence -
At the time of the 1891 census both Tom and Elizabeth are living in Canton in Cardiff. They are living in separate homes and both listed as single.
By the 1901 census they are listed as married and living at 19 Newcastle Street in Sheffield and have the following children all born in Sheffield -
Winifred Prudence 1897
Llewellyn 1899 died 1900
Gwendoline 1901
By 1903 my grandmother has been born
By 1911
Glenfinella 1903 and they are still living at 19 Newcastle Street
Elizabeth was always listed as nee Best on all records.
What dates should I be looking at for both the marriage and the birth?
Can anyone help please?
Thanks

Hi Karen,

To help you get the most out of your research you need access to the 1911 census where many of your questions can be answered. Do you have Toms year of birth???

Look for Lewis HINCHLIFFE 1907 as the added child. You can check it out on the GRO Index.

The information re the graves at City Road.

City Road Cemetery, Classification of grave types.

"Purchased, Common and Margin."

I believe that Tony gave you the explanation of the Common Grave

Which states for a specified number of burials. After those have taken place the plot can be sold on.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Hi Elaine
I've got the 1911 census which is where I got most of my info from ie 5 children born 3 survived. By chance I came across the 1891 info as Tom's entry has been mistranscribed. Nowhere can I find the marriage info for Tom and Elizabeth. The info re a marriage on there is relating to his second wife Eliza Ann Gascoyne. His first wife had passed in 1907 from breast cance and Tom remarried.
Re the grave info I was just curious re the length of the between burials. I hadn't thought it would be so long between burials?
Thanks again

Hello Elaine
Thanks for the info re Lewis in 1907. I was initially becoming hopeful as I know Lewis is a family name
Sadly the address is incorrect as between 1901 and 1911 the family were living on Newcastle Street and Lewis birth address on the burial index is given as
Hinchliffe, Lewis (child, age 13 days).
Died at 21 St Thomas St; Buried on January 10, 1907 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 17748, Section CC1 of City Road Cemetery.

Elizabeth Hinchliffe nee Best passed away December 1907 which again made me hopeful.
I'm going to take a look I think at the 1901 and 1911 census for 21 St Thomas Street next to see who lived there

Thanks

Karen,
The GRO Index clearly shows that Lewis Hinchliffe, birth reg q1 1907 had mother maiden name BEST.
His burial was on 10th Jan 1907, and he was 13 days old. So born 28 Dec 1906

HINCHLIFFE, Elizabeth (Wife of Tom, age 33).
Died at 19 Newcastle St; Buried on January 5, 1907 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11717, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.

Her death was registered q1 1907 on the first page of the reg book. Because Jan !st was a public holiday she must have been registered on 2nd or 3rd Jan.
The sequence of events was:
Dec 28 1906 Elizabeth gave birth to Lewis
Jan 2 or 3 1907 Elizabeth death registered
Jan 5 1907 Elizabeth buried
Jan 10 1907 Lewis buried in a grave which (eventually) contained 32 babies.

Tom had 4 other children to look after, his "wife" had just died having given birth to Lewis, who was presumably sick. Lewis will have been looked after by whoever was living at 21 St Thomas St, and he died there a few days later.
The birth cert for Lewis should give you the name and address of whoever registered his death.
You can purchase a PDF for £7.50
It is most likely that Tom and Elizabeth never married, not uncommon in those days.
Dave

No edit function
Should have added that the St Thomas Street and Newcastle Street addresses are less than 100 yards apart.
Dave

Dave
Thank you so much, I had forgotten about the GRO.
When you say you can purchase a PDF for 7.50 is that a PDF of the death certificate?

Thanks
Karen

Hi Dave
Just a point of clarification, New Years Day only became a Bank Holiday during my working time.

The 1871 Bank Holiday Act made New Year's Day a bank holiday in Scotland but England, Wales and Northern Ireland had to wait until the 1971 Act to get the day off.:smiley:

Angela

Angela, thanks. Useful info.So she was probably death registered 1st or 2nd

For Karen
Who lived in 21 St Thomas St around January 1907?. A year later it was Emma and Arthur Young, but they were not there in Jan 1907

YOUNG, Horace (of 22 Ripon Street, born 0000-01-21).
Baptised February 27, 1907, by J R Lee Nicholls at Christ Church, Attercliffe.
Parents name(s) are Emma & Arthur (Fitter).

Young, Horace (Child, age 16mo).
Died at 21 St Thomas St; Buried on January 8, 1908 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 15994, Section EE1 of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.

Dave

Hi Angela
It seems New Years Day 1907 (Tuesday) was a public holiday. It was marked in bold in the ref below.

Swedish Public Holidays 1907, the UK
Below you can find public holidays in the UK for 1907. In bold text is marked official Swedish public holidays (bank holidays). With regular text is marked days counted as a Sunday eventhough they are not officially a public holiday. Marked with regular text are also days which are sometimes counted as half working days as many companies ans shops are closed or have shorter opening hours. See the right column for comments related to each public holiday.
Dave

Karen, Yes, a PDF of the Death Cert.

I need to correct my earlier message about 21 St Thomas Street. I confused 2 different Horace Youngs

We have
Young, Horace (Child, age 16mo).
Died at 21 St Thomas St; Buried on January 8, 1908 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 15994, Section EE1 of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.

He has GRO registered birth in Q3 1906 Sheffield MMN Lovett (that would make him 16 months old at death in January 1908). His parents Thomas William Young and Rose Ellen Lovett married in Q2 1906 Sheffield.
I believe it is likely that they were already living at 21 St Thomas Street in January 1907 Horace would be 3-4 months old.
Their very close neighbour Elizabeth Hinchliffe died as a result of giving birth to Lewis so there would be a need for a surrogate mother to suckle Lewis. Rose Ellen Young would be perfect for that desperate need, and living within 100yards. They may even have been friends before the event. That would explain why Lewis died at 21 St Thomas St.
The birth cert for Horace in Q4 1906 could show his address then as 21 St Thomas Street.
Or perhaps someone can find a baptism for him?
Dave

Still no edit

There is a baptism for Horace Young in 1906 Sheffield. It is on FMP. I cannot see the original but I believe that St Thomas Street is mentioned in it.
Can someone please check it.
Dave

Hi
Elizabeth Best died from breast cancer so would not have been able to feed Lewis so your suggestion of a surrogate sounds very likely.
I don't know of any connection to the Young name through my family tree so it's highly likely again that they were friends.
Thanks so much for your help as I've come on in leaps and bounds. If only I could find the marriage of Tom Hinchliffe to Elizabeth Best. I know he married his second wife Eliza Ann Gascoyne in 1910 so wasn't apposed to marriage
Karen

Hello Dave
I've taken a look and the address is 60 Newcastle Street. Parents Thomas William and Rose Ellen.
I've also ordered the death certificate for Lewis to see reason for death and informant.
Tom and Elizabeth lived at 19 Newcastle Street.
Again thank you so much
Karen

Sorry to be a pain but I cannot find a map of Newcastle Street and its relation to St Thomas Street around this time. Each time I Google St Thomas Street it brings up Badger Lane
Thanks

Both streets run north off Portobello St. Right next to each other. St Thomas Street is to the west of Newcastle St and is a short cul-de-sac.
Dave

Found it!

Hi Karen,

The child Llewellyn DOB 1899 Buried 1900
Elizabeth as you stated Died of Breast Cancer but not until 1907.
Two daughters born 1901 & 1903.

Did you notice the place of birth for Elizabeth on the 1901 census?
That might have a bearing on where to look for a marriage.

HINCHLIFFE OR Hinchcliffe could be a possible reason for not finding a marriage.

BUT....... Tom was 51 in 1911 Eliza was 29.
and ..... Tom was 41 in 1901 Elizabeth was 28.

Rather late to be starting a family in those days.

Had Tom been married prior to Elizabeth???

Elaine.

****Note Sorry I was mixing up Llewellyn & Lewis who was born March qtr 1907.

DO you have a date of death for Tom please as I believe we may have an error with his burial?

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Hi Elaine

You asked about Tom having been married before Elizabeth? He could have been but as I haven't found his marriage to her I don't know if he was a bachelor if and when they did marry was she a spinster. All I do know is that he was unmarried in 1891 when he lived in Canton in Cardiff according to the census entry as was Elizabeth.I agree that they could have married somewhere in the Welsh area between 1891 and the birth of their first child. It's worth noting too that all of their children were born in Sheffield and Elizabeth was always listed as Hinchliffe nee Best with every child.
I do know that Elizabeth was born in Yeovil. She actually became an orphan at a very young age along with her sister Prudence and their grandparents put them into an orphanage. I don't think there was much love lost there but who knows.

I have the death certificates for both Tom and Elizabeth. Tom died on the 21 December 1928 whilst in the South Yorkshire Mental Hospital Wadsley. He is listed as being 69 years of age. His occupation is listed as General Labourer of 14 Wheeldon Street.He died from a fatty degeneration of the heart 2 years but I also know that in 1921 he was already listed on his second wife Eliza Ann's entry as already being in the asylum.
His address is given as 14 Wheeldon Street which is where they lived in 1911 but Eliza Ann is listed as living at 25 court 2 house Princess Street.This suggests to me that he could have been in the asylum for some time before his death.
I hope that all helps.

Thanks again for your help
Karen

You have answered one of the outstanding questions.

We have Tom down as being buried in 1958 in our burial transcription.

With your death certificate and what I turned up I will now change his burial to read 1928.

Did you check out the 1901 census for place of birth for Elizabeth??

Elaine.

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Hi Elaine

Yes I know from the 1901 census and earlier ones that she appears on she was born in Yeovil. It was also one of the family Chinese whispers lol
I thought the burial entry for Tom on here was correct? He is buried on the same grave as his sister Sarah (Wilkinson from her 2nd marriage) and Benjamin Morton his brother in law from his sister Sarahs first marriage. Both of his wives are in other graves with other family members.
Karen

Sorry about that.. I thought I had edited that entry.

Confusing family you have.

I did find your Tom and as I had suggested they have his name as HINCHCLIFFE on his burial. I also said I would check it again in the am.

The reason I keep on about Elizabeth's place of birth is that there is a possibility of a marriage there. 1901 census gives her birth place as Yeovil, Somerset.

However........Looking at the 1891 census.

5 Atlas Rd, Cardiff. Eccles Parish Canton.
Tom Hinchlyfs Boarder MARRIED aged 31 File Cutter Born Sheffield.
No wife with him.

Thats me for tonight before I confuse myself even more.LOL

Elaine.

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Hi
I am so sorry but it just goes to show read what you've written! I've been working from my hand written notes and had put Tom as unmarried. What a plonker am I. Thank you so much Elaine 💕.

Unfortunately I still have the same problem in that I need to find (if there was one) the marriage of Tom to Elizabeth. I am guessing however that Canton might be where they met? Tom was quite a way from home so it makes me wonder what he was doing there.
There's also now another spanner in the works in that if Tom was married before who was his first wife?

Sorry again everyone!
Karen

Morning,

As promised I went back to the original material for City Road.....

Tom was incorrectly transcribed as HINCHCLIFF. I have changed it to read
Hinchliffe in our database.

Back to Tom & Elizabeth. Have you thought that Tom if he was already married and had deserted his first wife he would NOT have been able to marry Elizabeth. After Elizabeth's death maybe the first wife had died so he was able to marry Eliza in 1910.

Lots more digging for you. Marriage prior to 1891.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Sorry Edit missing......

Karen,

Look at the very messy 1911 census page. Especially the years he states he was married. (1896) Thats maybe when he got together with Elizabeth (Best) Winifred P was four years old on the 1901 census. Maybe Best was a married name?????

Thats it for me I am afraid.......

Sheffield Indexers transcribers are a calling.

Elaine.

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Hi there
I know that Best was definitely her maiden name as she and her sister were orphans from a young age. I have their paperwork from the orphanage.
I had a feeling that the marriage might be between 1896 and 1901 too but I was unsure as to the birth date of the other child that passed away who I now know with your help was Lewis incase it was prior to 1896.

Karen

Karen
There was no marriage recorded for a Hinchliffe (or any possible other spelling), to a Best in England and Wales within the lifespan of Elizabeth Best. Every Elizabeth Best who married in Sheffield and a wide surrounding area has a known named husband, and none of them could possibly be a misconstrued Hincliffe.
Tom and Elizabeth never went through an officially recorded marriage. You can stop looking
There could be many reasons for that. Elaine suggested maybe he was already married so could not commit bigamy.
Tom did right by Elizabeth's children, he officially allowed them his name and therefore made them legitimate. Maybe Elizabeth did not insist on marriage. Maybe Tom's later wife did insist on marriage.
Maybe they did marry but somehow it did not get recorded (highly unlikely)
If he was not still in a previous marriage then you will never know the reason but you, and we, will not find a marriage for them.
Dave

Hi Karen/Dave,

I said I would leave it alone but reading your reply I feel you are missing the point. FORGET the marriage if indeed there was one. It doesn't matter.

To go back you have Tom's father & mothers name from the 1871 census.

I have just looked at the 1891 census for Elizabeth and found her.
What jumped out at me is the fact the family she is with came from Somerset. Where they related to her parents? She was 15yrs old on that census.

You state that Elizabeth and her sister were adopted. Do the papers state who her parents were.

Birth place for Elizabeth on the 1891 census Longport Somerset.
On the 1901 census she states Yeovil Somerset. Very close to one another.

Cardiff is also not that far away and I presume ease of access.

Can I nudge you away from "a marriage" and research what you have now.

Hope this helps.

Elaine.

** Note from FMP there are certainly "Best's" in Langport on a number of census etc.

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Hi Dave/Elaine

Leave it with me. I have taken onboard your comments and am truly grateful for your help in finding Lewis's birth and death if not a marriage for Tom and Elizabeth.

Karen

A quick update
I now have the death certificate for Lewis Hinchliffe. He died 8th January and was 13 years old. Name and address of informant is Tom Hinchliffe of 21 St Thomas Street which is also where Lewis died.
Earlier it was questioned when the Young family moved to 21 St Thomas Street. We now know it was after 8 January 1907.
Thanks again for everyone's help.

Sorry for my earlier error. Lewis was 13 days old when he died not 13 years.

Hi Karen,

I have only just seen your entry and although I can't help you with a marriage I am decended from Tom Hinchliffe's grandfather's sister. I have traced this family back to 1775 and can give you what info I have if you are interested.

Kind Regards

Lindsey

I'd like to ask your opinion as to if 2 signatures I have are made by one and the same person. Is there a way to add a photo on here please?
Thanks

Karen,
It is not possible to upload a picture to this forum.
I have got round this problem in the past by putting the picture into Dropbox then pasting the link to it into a message here.
Dave

Thank you!

Hi Karen,

If you would like to send me the two signatures I will have a look at it for you.

BUT.......the signatures might have been filled in by whom ever made up the certificate. I am sure way in the past there was a note circulated to all ministers NOT to fill in the certificates prior to the ceremony and that included the signature. I wouldn't swear 100% true but when I first started family history that was one of the stories I heard.

Elaine in Ottawa.