"In situations like that many illegitimate people invent a father name at their marriage in order to conceal their illegitimacy. So I believe Joseph Potter was an invention."

Maybe true but I have come across many who used their grandfathers first name when they married. Because they were the people who had brought the child up.

Elaine.

Hi Lyn,

I am sure that your research will be correct...as always.

You know we love a challenge and this is certainly going that way.
But thanks for the referral.


Elaine.

the death cert for Mary Coleman states wife of Henry Coleman (general dealer) and was registered by Lucy potter present at death

Instant Messenger: hazel808@msn.com

Henry Colemans death was registered by his daughter Ann howsham fletcher he died in the union workhouse

Hazel
I know you have the birth cert for Jane Potter in 1872. Who registered the birth and what was the birth address please?
Dave
PS Wow Denise, great find

Lucy potter registered it and it looks like 20 OBORNE STREET BRIGTSIDE BRIELOW

Just to add one more child for Richard.

POTTER, Jane Ann (Dau of Richd Potter, age 2 years 10 months).
Died at Nursery Street; Buried on October 21, 1865 in General ground;
Grave Number 29, Section T5 of Burngreave Cemetery, Sheffield.

Elaine.

Hazel
I have checked the Nursery Street entries on the 1871 census and there are several blocks of numbers missing I suspect that Lucy (perhaps with Richard) was in one of those missing houses.
Dave

Dave/Denise,

Does this fit in with any of the research you have seen.

POTTER, Joseph (Widower, age 30, Striker, residing at Brightside).
Married Sarah Ann PEARSON, on March 22, 1874, by Thomas Hulme (Banns) at
St Thomas, Brightside. Father's name is Joseph Potter (Carter).
Married in the presence of William Potter (mark),Ann Hall (mark).
Notes: Groom signed with a mark.

This family are certainly confusing. Needs a flow sheet to keep them all sorted.

Elaine.

The Burgess Roles for 1875-1876 list Richard Potter as having a qualifying property at 1 Court 2 Cross Love Street. Which is where Lucy Potter died years later.

Denise

Denise could Richard have been in prison during those missing years 1867-1872???

Elaine.

Denise, please could you tell me where I find the burgess rolls on the internet, or is it part of FMP.

Brilliant Denise.
Assuming Richard Potter was AKA Joseph Potter then everything all falls into place.

Hazel, suggest you get this death cert to see who registered it:
POTTER, JOSEPH 74
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 267

Here is the burial from this site:
POTTER, Joseph (, died on ?, at the age of 74).
Resided at Deakin Square, Attercliffe and buried on 31 Aug 1879 in ? ground;
Grave Number ?, Section ? of Attercliffe Cemetery, Attercliffe.
Notes: . Place of Birth: . Parent(s):

Dave

That death re Joseph is the one I have died aged 74 in august 1879 registered by William potter (son) but says they lived on 28 high street attercliffe and Joseph was a master carter
On Janes wedding cert she said Joseph was a carter

In researching my own family lines - I have found grandfather's named as fathers on marriage certificates when someone was illegitimate rather than leave it blank. I have known unmarried/widowed brothers take on their deceased brother's wife and family. People could lie and get away with it more easily or simply state something they did not know the truth of. A woman could name her deceased husband as the father of her later 'illegitimate' children years after his death. One in my maternal line had 3 such children and later married their true father when his wife died and then they went on use their true father's name. We not only research our family tree but we uncover their lies too and isn't it fun. :grin:
I think everyone has done brilliantly on this and looked outside the box giving Hazel a lot of food for thought.
Lyn

Hazel. This Joseph can be traced back to 1871 and 1861 with his wife and children. He was born in Notts definitely not right for us
Dave

So let see if I can get this correct.

We are looking for a Richard Potter born Scarborough around 1811 and probably married circa 1835ish but we are not sure where. Has he been found yet on the 1841 census?

Do we know think that Richard and Joseph are two seperate people or are we still on course to think they are the same.

Are we also sure that we have not got two families mixed up here, yes they could be related bbut we all know that two families could easily name their children the same.

If I am going off track then sorry, I need to go and buy a new thinking cap as I think the one I have must have broken!!!!!!!

John

Ps there is a marriage of a Richard Potter to Mary Saunderson in 1840 at Hutton Cranswick, this is a village near Driffield. Presume we can rule this out.

Last night I decided to match some of the Sheffield "Potters" up and see if they had a connection with Richard the fishmonger.

Managed to trace the Attercliffe Richard (1833) (Brick maker) back to 1841.
His father was a John and they were all born in Leicestershire ( Keyworth).

Now to Richard (Fishmonger) we have not been able to prove ...one his age and two he was indeed born in Scarborough. He did state his father was a John on his marriage to Lucy.

I believe I was told many years ago that it only became law about 1875 that All children were to be registered. Many folks thought baptism was good enough in the early years of registration. Another fact was that the onus was on the registrar to find these children.

I am sure others will verify those facts.?

Richard Potter is a very common name and part of the problem without those early
census to guide us.

BUT like Denise I will carry on....LOL.

Elaine.

Yes Elaine that is correct re birth reg. I also learned that the onus on ensuring a birth was registered back in time fell upon the person who owned or rented the property where the birth took place. My grandmother had an illegitimate child in Llandudno in 1903 and because her fella was a travelling entertainer they didn't register the birth, perhaps they didn't know they should, and they had moved on. 7 weeks later he returned to Llandudno from Chester to register the birth presumably after trying to do so in Chester and was fined 42 shillings (£2.10p) for the late reg. A lot of money back then.

Dave, thanks for the info re Hutton Cranswick so we know that is wrong.

Richard in 1861 was 50 years old so that rules out another option I had that he was serving in the armed forces etc.

I just hope the answer to all this isn't staring us in the face.

I wonder if he had any shops etc and if so would he be in the Kelly's around the mid 1860s pity they were not available on line.

Finally another crazy idea of mine...could Richard be in fact his middle name. I mean we know his father was called John so was he really John Richard Potter and known to evryone as Richard to save confusion.

Hazel.
A bit of a long shot. You could try contacting the Wakefield Deeds Registry to see what they have on Richard Potter and his house on Cross Love Lane. For a small fee they will do a search for you.
https://www.wyjs.org.uk/archive-service/registry-of-deeds-and-family-and-local-history/

Dave

Thankyou I will try them I have made a list from gro of all the Richard potters whom died between 71-82 roughly going on the age he put in the 1861 census

Hazel
In 1851 (still there in 1861 in Spilsby there is just one Coleman family other than yours. But the females in that family are all too young to have children th the late 1850s.

COLEMAN, GEORGE HENRY MAULKINSON -
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 486
COLEMAN, GEORGE HENRY MAULKINSON 1
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 312

COLEMAN, HENRY -
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 517

I believe both these illegitimate boys must be from girls in your Coleman family (ie Betsy, Ann, Lucy)
Henry in 1859 is the perfect age to be the William who died in 1865. Presumably he must be Lucy's and the name was changed later to William, perhaps by Lucys parents.
The earlier one, George Henru, was presumably from Betsy or Ann.
Dave

the Henry Coleman 1859 has come up has Lucy's child Thankyou

Can you give the details please?
Dave

Ann Coleman had married John Howsam in July 1853 and their first son Geo Henry Hows(h)am was born in the Dec qtr of the same year

born jan 1850 can't make out actual date think it may be 30th Henry Coleman mother Lucy Coleman unmarried mother born union workhouse hunddleby

hi Dave there was another daughter to Henry &Mary a child called Mary in 1843 she went on to have the child (John who is on the census with Henry later named William

Hazel. Thanks. I know that Mary Jane Coleman was born 1843 Spilsby (mmn Whatton).She was with her parents and family in 1851 census. However I cannot trace her thereafter.
How do you know she was mother of John please?
Dave

I was curious and looked at births and found a cert with Mary named has his mother he had not been given a christian name when registered though also she is not named in the will either is she which I find strange

has a marriage been found yet between a coleman and a whatton

Hazel. That unmamed boy was birth registered in Q2 1861 which is AFTER the 1861 Census (which was end March 1861) . He may possibly have been the son of Mary Jane, Lucy's younger sister born 1843, but he cannot possibly be the John Coleman age 1 on the 1861 Census.
Dave

The only marriage I found for a Henry Coleman and a Mary Whattam (various spellings was) -

Mary Watton
Gender Female
Record Type Marriage
Marriage Date 15 Apr 1824
Marriage Place Saint Leonard, Shoreditch: Shoreditch High Street, Hackney, England
Spouse Henry Coleman
Register Type Parish Register
I had done my research years ago before the advent of computers etc. I think I got it from the IGI - now it does show on ancestry.
Both Henry b c 1798 and Mary were born in Leicestershire as it states in the census.

Familysearch gives us Henry Coleman Coleman
Birth Date 25 Apr 1797
Religion Anglican
Father's Name Thos
Mother's Name Sarah
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 18 Jun 1797
Event Place Great Bowden, Leicestershire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Leicestershire,England,Great Bowden