Mary Innocent was born 1843 to parents George and Jane (nee Worth). She married Bartholomew Jones in 1860.

I've found her in 1871 living with her mother Jane (now married to Charles Appleyard) with children

John H Jones b 1863
Fred Jones b 1864
George Jones b 1866
Joseph Jones b 1871

There is no sign of Bartholomew.

I've looked on GRO for births of children but can't seem to find them except Joseph b 1871 but he was registered as INNOCENT with mother's maiden name as APPLEYARD!

I can't get any further so could someone with fresh eyes take a look and see if they can sort them out please?

Hi Jenny

You dont say if you've found them on the 1861 census but...
'
The 1861 census has:
George Innocent - Head - aged 49
George Innocent - son - aged 24
Jane Appleyard - married lodger aged 48
Mary Jones - daughter aged 17 (status left blank)
John H Jones aged 3 months

No Bartholomew

So if this is them (?) John H Jones was born in 1860/1861. I've also found George Jones mmn Innocent born in 1864.

Denise

Hi Jenny

In 1871 the family are living in Orchard St Neepsend - and you've found Josephs birth, surname Innocent mmn Appleyard in 1871.

There is a baptism on 8 Aug 1871 at Neepsend for Joseph Innocent (B Oct 12 1870), Father Thomas Innocent Cutler, Mother Mary of Orchard St Neepsend.

If Mary had effectively been brought up by Charles Appleyard and she was 'estranged' from, but still married to Bartholomew that could explain the birth registration?

Denise

Jane innocent married charles appleyard in 1851...perhaps 1851 census could help.sats charles was31 years old. Charles was born 1819 baptised in 1829. If that is correct charles. So was the george innocent on the 1861 census a cousin of George that married Jane. The only bartholomew birth I can find was born in Cornwall in 1839. What I think we need is a birth cert of one of the children because I think barholomew is a middle name.

Jenny, do you have the 1960 marriage cert for Bartholomew Jones to Mary Innocent?
Dave

It's on this site

I've been looking again for a birth reg for John H using JONES/INNOCENT/APPLEYARD but still can't find one!

Not sure why the father's name was Thomas on the baptism. I'll try and sort it out later.

Thanks for your help.

Just found the death and burial of Joseph in 1871 on this site and the grave also contains children with the surname JONES so more to delve into....

JONES, GEORGE INNOCENT
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 435: JONES, HERBERT INNOCENT
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 361

Thanks for those Barry.

I've just found Mary on the 1891 census living on Button Lane (where a couple of her children died). She is using INNOCENT as her surname and there are 5 of her children with her all having INNOCENT surnames but most of them were registered under JONES.

I've found a reg for a Lily Jones in 1887 with mmn IBBERSON but could this be INNOCENT???

Hi Jenny,

Nice to see your name again.

I have just spent the afternoon trying to make headway with Frank Innocent(1902) who marries into my Cottam Line.

I went way back (more than I needed) and I think I have linked up to George Innocent & Jane Worth.
We wont be blood relatives but once I have rechecked it I might be able to help when you start going back.

I don't know if you have checked Family Search and their new tree's out. They do have a link to the line I have been working on back to George & Jane...... check it out.

Some of my Innocents seem to be Methodists so hard to spot in some cases. I checked the burials to see if they were cons or in non con plots.

Elaine.

Hi Jenny et al,
I have been trying to track down a death for
BARTHOLOMEW JONES B:1839 Cornwall area (who married Mary Innocent 1860/Aug/20th

The death record which I think is a good match (with a large ??):
BARTHOLOMEW JONES
Died: 1860 March qtr.
Age: 21 (B:c1839)
Redruth. Cornwall
In 1841 it looks like Bartholomew, age 2 was in Redruth Union Workhouse so maybe he was going back to his roots...?? or showing off his new wife..??
The huge ?? is...this death was recorded 5 months before the recorded marriage on:
August 20th.1860 in Sheffield.
The other strange thing, the death is identically recorded twice on both GRO & BMD websites.
HAPPYHUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

jenny, have you purchased the full birth details for these 2 children. Do they actually name a father and is it Bartholomew?
Dave

Still checking

I can not turn up an 1851 census for George Snr.

On the 1841 census with wife Jane he is 40yrs+ I believe it should be around 1798.

In 1861 he is listed as being 49.

His son George age is fine five in 1841 and 37 in 61. Give or take a year.

Elaine

The marriage of Mary gives her age as 19 so born 1841,

INNOCENT, Mary (Spinster, age 19, ~, residing at Edward St).
Married Bartholomew JONES, on August 20, 1860, by H H Wright (Banns) at
St George, Brook Hill. Father's name is George Innocent (Sawyer).
Married in the presence of George Innocent,Margaret Curicknell Stainfield.
Notes: Bride signed with a mark.
Page No: 89 Reg No: 177

Jane (as a widow) married Charles Appleyard in May 1851. And she is on the 1851 census prior to marrying Charles, as a widow.

Jane is down as Appleyard on the 1861 census - so it's something odd about George Innocent snr on that 1861 census even though George junr fits?

Denise, with reference to your death find for Bartholomew could it be that she knew he had died but because she was expecting ( John H ) could she have turned up to the marriage with a friend/relative you pretended to be Bartholomew. Probably me being paranoid though.

Or...did George snr 'disappear' sometime after Marys birth. Jane went on to remarry in 1851 as a widow and then sometime between then and 1861 George snr reappears on 1861 census with Jane and Mary visiting?

need then to try and find Charles Appleyard on the 1861 censusand the death of Jane's first husband

something fishy...when Jane Innocent married Charles appleyard in 1851 it stated her age as 38 so birth would be 1813.

Jane's first marriage to george innocent was in 1820!!!!!!

So theres Charles Appleyard B 1820 Cutler (same as 1871 census details) who seems to have been a very naughty boy from 1836 through to at least 1864.

Various minor crimes which he was imprisoned for - including 4 years in 1859, but liberated on licence in 1862!

WOW. There's so much info to take in so I'll try and sort it all out. Thanks to everyone who has helped.

Hi Dave

Today I just got birth cert for another son, William who I found living with Mary in 1891.

He was born 24/12/1882 and named William Henry Jones son of WILLIAM a scissor forger and lived at 4ct West John Street. Mother was Mary Jones formerly Innocent.

The plot thickens. I'll try and look for a William Jones but with such a common name I might not get any further.

Denise ong on charles appleyard may I ask did you find that in newspapers or under crime and punishment section?

Hi Denise

your question

Or...did George snr 'disappear' sometime after Marys birth. Jane went on to remarry in 1851 as a widow and then sometime between then and 1861 George snr reappears on 1861 census with Jane and Mary visiting?


It's always puzzled me as to what happened to George so that's something else to look into.

Denise, again might be me being paranoid, could George Innocent and Charles Appleyard be the same person? look when he disappeared ties in when Charles started being upto no good ie the George Innocent is not the George that Jane married but a name that Jane used so that the neighbours thought that Charles was still in the care of he majesty's

John

No not the same person - Charles has a baptism record and all the details tie up with those given when he married Jane.

I found his long criminal record under Prison records (under Institutions).

so I reckon then George Snr on 1861 census is a different George to the one Jane married ie a cousin. Going to see if the original Charles Appleyard marriage to Jane is on FMP in case the indexers have a typo error.

On the other hand could the Jane Innocent that married Charles be not in fact the Jane that married George

ie George Innocent married Jane Worth in 1820 father ?

Mr Innocent married Jane Worth in ???? father Joseph

Joseph and ???? worth are brothers

probably completely wrong

Just my thoughts and ideas.

Jenny, pleas, have you or have you not the full birth details of
JONES, GEORGE INNOCENT
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 435:
JONES, HERBERT INNOCENT
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 361

Dave

I've just bought the digital copy of George's birth reg and he was born on 30th June 1864. Father Bartholomew Jones a waterman. Address Marshall St

Hi Jenny,

The Marshall St Address is where they are in 1881.George the son(1836) He does have a Mary Jane but she was born 1868.
Elaine

Elaine

I've found Mary and her family in 1881 and they are living at 3ct 6 Wilson Street. They are listed under INNOCENT.

Another note.

1861 census.

Jane Appleyard 48 the Lodger was born in Kirkshelton? Scotland.

Jane Worth I believe was born in Sheffield but will re check it.

Elaine.

PS. The marriage cert for Charles Appleyard 31 & Jane Innocent 38 a Widow father Joseph Worth DOCTOR.

Ages never seem to match up.

E.

Definitely born Scotland says she was a charwoman

Jenny, consider the following summary:

Aug 1860 Mary Innocent marries Bartholomew Jones a pen knife cutler.

Around 4 months later she gives birth to a son John Henry.No birth or baptism reg.

Another 3 months (1861 census) Bartholomew is gone and she is with her mother and John Henry.

Another 1-2 yrs she has another son Fred. No birth or baptism record

Another 1-2 yrs (1864) she has another son George birth reg Jones, mmn Innocent. Father said to be Bartholomew a Waterman (not a PK Cutler)

Another 6-7 yrs (1871 she has another son Joseph but registers him as INNOCENT, mmn Appleyard (her mother's married name). The baptism says father name Thomas Innocent, cutler

Another 2 yrs (1873) she has another son Herbert birth reg as Jones, mmn Innocent. I wonder what name she invented for his father (you should buy the digital image).

1881 Living as INNOCENT with her family

1882 she has another son William Henry birth reg as Jones, MMN Innocent, father William Jones, scissor forger.

So she keeps changing her mind about surname (Innocent or Jones) and each time she has a child she invents a new father name.

Perhaps you should consider how Mary could afford to keep her family and why there were so many different fathers (real or imagined).

Of course this does not help solve the mystery of who was the original Bartholomew Jones and how did he disappear.


Dave

Yes I agree Bartholomew Jones is a mystery as to why he disappeared, Dave does it seem strange to you that there is a six year gap where she has no children so did Mary disappear too for a bit and if so where too?

Jenny, I assume you have realised that the other 4 children buried in the same grave as Joseph Innocent and William Jones are all Mary's as well. They are:
Thomas Jones b 1867 died 1870 son of Bartholomew
Jane Elizabeth b 1880 died 1880
Frank b 1884 died 1890
Arthur b 1886 died 1887 son of Jno Jones.

There are baptism records on this site for Jane Elizabeth INNOCENT father George and For Thomas Jonesfather Thomas, scissor grinder.
Thero are birth registrations on GRO for Frank and Arthur so that is another 2 digitL images to get to complete the picture.
Dave

So on here:

JONES, Frederick (Bachelor, age 30, Forger, residing at 6 Button St).
Married Emily MAWSON, on July 2, 1893, by F C Stock (Banns) at
Sheffield Parish Church, Church Street, Sheffield. Father's name is Bartholomew Jones,deceased (Boatman).
Married in the presence of George Jones,Elizabeth Jones.
Notes: Groom signed with a mark.
Page No: 57 Reg No: 113

Mary is then living with Fred and his family at Button Lane in 1901 (with William Henry and Lily).

Good find. I wonder could bartholomew be a middle name hence why we haven't found any I fo of his birth and death ie do we rule out the cornwall birth of 1839

Dave thanks for the summary of Mary's life. It certainly paints a colourful picture of her. She doesn't seem so INNOCENT does she?

I have now got a good idea how many children she had but who knows who the fathers were! Maybe when she was registering/baptising them and they asked for a father's name she gave her father's name George or Bartholomew's father William. Who knows....

If Bartholomew was a boatman perhaps he was missed on censuses. Just a thought.

Jane (Worth) who married George Innocent was born in Bolsover, Derbyshire according to the 1881 census. This seems more realist as they were married in Chesterfield.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to solve the mysteries of this family but I don't think we can get any further.

Jenny

Morning researchers.

I know Jenny & I would love to solve this mystery.

Looking at DaveT & Denise's information along with my own & Jenny's its becoming a little clearer.

I have placed them all in chronological order and its helping.

I think we are dealing with miss information. George Innocent 1836 who looks to be a brother to Mary Jones has his wife's surname for all his eleven children's middle name. Seems customary in the family to do that. So Mary's children i.e. George Innocent Jones (1864) would carry on the custom.

Mary seems loath to register or baptise her children. Then again they could have been but as Methodists.

Will check those burials out Dave.

Elaine.

And of course it was not legal to register until 1875 and perhaps they could not afford the registration and baptism fees hence the reason some are missing. What would be interesting is if someone had a Kelly's of the mid 1860s to check out the addresses

Jenny. Yes indeed. She was so free in changing her name I am surprised she did not change it to Guilty.

ELAINE, I am aware of 10 childen of Mary. She Registered 4, baptised 4 and only the first 2 went unregistered and unbaptised.
Dave

Correction. She registered 5, one of which was also baptised and she baptised another 3
Dave

Dave, corrrect me if I am wrong but could a different relative other then the mother register a birth and hence that is why so many name changes etc?

Just found the baptism for Lily. She was baptised as Lilian Jones on 18th Dec 1888 in St Matthew's Church Carver St. The address was 6ct 2h Button Lane where Mary lived in 1891/1901. There was no father's name given.

If we just look at the first few births we have
1860/1 John H no reg no bap
1862/3 Fred no reg no bap
1864 George Birth Reg. Father Bartholomew. Waterman

As Denise found, Fred married at age 30 and said his father was Bartholomew, Boatman

So it looks like for the first 4 the father was consistently said to be Bartholomew, though a different occupation from the one Bartholomew gave at the marriage (cutler)

Dave

Theres also Thomas Jones son of Bartholomew Jones who died aged 2 in 1870.

So there is consistency up until 1868 with Bartholomew. Being a Waterman/Boatman makes sense that he might not have been around for the 1861 census.

He seemingly disappears around 1868/70 (interestingly the death of Thomas in 1870 was in the paper - noted as son of Bartholomew).

Then in 1870 Mary seems to have 'moved on' by having Joseph ??

As an aside which may be nothing as I've not delved much further - on the marriage cert Bartholomew gave his father as William Jones (both pen knife cutlers) . He gave his age as 21 in 1860, but ...

On the 1841 census in St Benedict Lincolnshire - Bartholomew Jones aged 4 months - father William Jones - Waterman.

On the 1871 census Bartholomew Jones aged 30 and married, is an able seaman on board a merchant ship, docked in East Yorkshire but registered in Grimsby Lincolnshire

Then in late 1871 Bartholomew Jones aged 30 drowns in the Humber in Lincolnshire.

Could it be that after coming to Sheffield (for whatever reason) and taking a job as a cutler and marrying Mary he yearned 'for the sea'?

Probably not connected at all, but it would explain why Mary lived with family - if Bartholomew was away most of the time.

Just a thought as stranger things have been known to happen!!!!

Denise

Denise, brilliant, you just beat me to it on the Lincoln Bartholomew but I did not have the able seaman and death in the Humber..

Further info is that in 1841 there is a "sister" Margaret Stainforth age 3 living with Bartholomew in Lincoln. In 1851 in Lincoln she has become Margaret Jones sister to 10 yr old Bartholomew.

A William Jones age 55 dies in SHEFFIELD in 1858 and a Margaret Stainfield marries in SHEFFIELD in 1871. So it looks like Bartholomew and his family moved to Sheffield after 1851 and before 1858

Dave

Brilliant - you've cracked the last bit Dave - Margaret was a witness at Bartholomew and Mary's marriage!!

Is this the same bartholomew that was born in Cornwall and where did you find he drowned in the Humber?

No it's a different Bartholomew and his burial record on FMP says he drowned in the Humber.

Just dotting the last i and crossing the last t.

William Jones married Elizabeth Stainfield Q2 1841 Lincoln. Margaret Stainfield baptised 1838 illegit daughter of Elizabeth Stainfield (FMP)

On 1841 Census Bartholomew was 4 months old so it looks like he was born just before his parents married. It seems they were too busy to register or baptise him.

Dave

Jones family still at 6 Wilson street in 1884
Sheffield Daily Telegraph 1 Sep 1884 reports charges of theft of coal by George Jones & George Redfern. The address given for both is 6 Wilson Street.

I can't believe how much more info has been found! Thanks so much. At least we now know what happened to Bartholomew.

I'll start adding all this info into my family tree. Mary Innocent was only a "twig" on the tree but it's grown massively thanks to all of you.

Hi Dave,
I have found on GRO a birth Reg: for Bartholomew Stainfield Jones (enter Stainfield) for 1841..March qtr. Lincoln Union. no mmn.
Sounds like our man..??
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Great find Wendy,

I keep thinking we can close this thread but more details keep coming

Amen
Dave

On FMP there is for 1841 a baptism for Bartholomew Jane Stainfield mother Elizabeth

presume the jane should be actually Jones.

I am not confident this has been cracked.

The 1871 able seaman seems a possibility.

Denise says "in late 1871 Bartholomew Jones aged 30 drowns in the Humber in Lincolnshire." What is the source of that information? If there was one, a supporting newspaper story about the event might clarify family connections.

There are a very few family trees at Ancestry for Bartholomew Stainfield, but they omit an Innocent connection. One claims the 1841 Bartholomew Jones Stainfield died in 1879 in Lincolnshire (as Bartholomew Jones); but that person was a "gentleman" (probate) and aged 74.


So what happened to the sailor?

As Denise correctly pointed out he was buried Age 30 on November 3 1871 in Barton on Humber. The burial is on FMP and states that he drowned in the Humber.
Dave

EDIT I know the area well because my grandfather lived in Winteringham and Alkborough, two villages along the south Bank of the Humber near Barton. Even in the 1960s when I visited frequently it was a very isolated area with poor roads. I am not surprised that he would be buried before a death reg could be obtained from many miles away, and that the vicar would forget to do it later. The nearest newspaper would be Hull in Yorkshire on the North Bank, but that was a long ferry journey so again no surprise there is no newspaper article.

wonder if we can out if 1. Bartholomew died as a result of an accident, was there a storm which overturned the boat so hence more crew sucummbed or did he and I hope not commit suicide?

Just in case you don’t have it:
Saturday, Dec. 3, 1870 Publication: Sheffield Independent
DEATHS
JONES, Dec. 1, Thomas, son of Mr. Bartholomew Jones, Garden street, aged 2.