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Hello all - I have a real mystery in my family and I'm hoping other heads can help me figure it out. One of my family names is Law. My Great Grandmother was Hannah Law (b. 25 May 1874) out of wedlock to Ellen Law (b. 07 Nov 1856). I can trace her to her parents, John Law (b. between 1834-1836) and I believe, Sarah King. Here's where I'm running up against a brick wall. I have John's marriage certificate that show his father Joseph was a Slater. However, when I do any other type of searching, all records come back to his father being in the clothing industry - cloth Draper. However, John was a slater all of his life. I've tried numerous ways to find a Joseph who was a slater that could have been John's father and have had no luck. I'm sure a son could deviate from going into his father's trade, but I just can't figure this one out. Any help would be much appreciate.
Hi Jackie,
Could you give us an idea where he was born or lived please.
Elaine.
Is this your chap.
LAW, John (Bachelor, age 20, Slater, residing at High St).
Married Sarah KING, on October 24, 1854, by James Armstrong Henderson (Banns) at
St John, Park. Father's name is Joseph Law (Slater).
Married in the presence of William Bouskill,Harriet Pass (mark).
Notes: Groom signed with a mark.
Hi Elaine - John is my 3rd Great Grandfather and I have loads of records for him - Baptism,1841 through 1901 census records, death and marriage certificates. I have not been able to find a birth record for him - but from census records I know he was born between 1834 and 1836. What I'm confused about is his father Joseph. The only place I can see a reference to Joseph being a Slater is on John's marriage certificate. However, on the 1841 and 1851 census records, Joseph's occupation is listed as Cloth Dresser. I've tried to find other Joseph/John combinations where Joseph is actually a Slater and I've had no luck. Jackie
I forgot to mention his baptism record shows that he was baptized in Kirkstall, Saint Stephen, Yorkshire. All the other records show he was born in Sheffield, and I know he lived in Rotherham as well
A mystery.
My observation which may or not have a bearing on your problem.
John's marriage at St John's Park.......I was one of the transcribers and was using fiche which was very hard to read at time. So could Joseph be incorrect?
I presume the baptism you found at Kirkstall (Leeds) is the correct family. I can see his father being list as a cloth dresser as I am sure you are aware that Leeds was one of the major clothing areas for the country.
A personal note. I also have Laws we married into my Woodhouse line. They were also Slaters. A number of Johns
on the 1841 census (Sheffield) but I can't see a John & Joseph.
My John Law was born in 1839 father Thomas also a slater. His mother was Sarah Levick They were married in Rotherham 1836.
Dont know if this info helps or hinders. LOL.
I dont have FMP or Ancestry at this time so unable to get to the nitty gritty.
Elaine in Ottawa.
Well - it's a small world after all. I have Woodhouse relatives as well Elaine! Florence Woodhouse was my great grandmother - she was born in Kimberworth, Yorkshire.
So the issue with the marriage certificate - if it was hard to transcribe, I think I'll go with what I've got until I can prove otherwise - that Joseph was actually and cloth dresser and John just decided to go a different route.
I really appreciate the feedback Elaine. Jackie
“John's marriage at St John's Park......fiche which was very hard to read at time. So could Joseph be incorrect?”
There are a good number of family trees at Ancestry for John Law & Sarah King. Some include an image of the GRO’s certificate of marriage.
That has his father as Joseph Law, slater.
I note the FamilySearch.org transcription has slater for both John & Joseph.
How old was John when he married. I would be very cautious about the leeds baptism you found. When did john die?
There were apparently at least 2 Joseph Law in the Sheffield area in the 1850s-1870s.
An Ancestry search on Joseph Law, with keyword slater, gets results at the collection called: UK, Prison Commission Records, 1770-1951.
According to those registers there are 2 individuals with this name and occupation, aged 6-7 years apart.
The records usually have him/them ensconced at the House of Correction, Wakefield, having been sent there from Sheffield / Rotherham. One (1872) has such a person at Leeds, & I don’t see where the offences were committed.
The years and ages:
1859 25 = born about 1834
1860 33 = 1827
1862 28 = 1834
1868 40 = 1828
1869 41 = 1828
1872 44 = 1828
I thought I’d do as similar search for John Law, occupation slater. We get:
1859 John Law 23, Joseph Law 25, both slaters (& Alfred Bromley 22, file cutter, the 3 were jointly charged).
1860 John Law 24.
1860 John alias Joseph Law 27.
Hi John, According to his marriage certificate (which I have), he was 20 years old, living on High Street. That would put his birthdate at 1834. However his death certificate (which I also have) says he was 75 when he died (living on Burrell street), which would put his birthdate at 1836. I have found birth certificates during those timeframes, but wrong father.
Hi Terry - I too found those prison records. I have his marriage certificate to Sarah King. I'm almost positive I have the correct people. It's all based on my Grandmother, Hannah Law, who was born out of wedlock to Ellen Law. In searching for Ellen, I found John and Sarah. Then researching John led me to his birth and marriage certificates, both of which listed Joseph as a slater. However, I can find no census records for a Joseph as a Slater - only as a cloth dresser.
Elaine - I have ordered multiple birth certificates for John hoping to find one with Joseph as a Slater - no luck. However, one of them was for a John Levick Law - mother Sarah Levick. Your relative? And do you have this record? I'd be glad to send it to you.
Hi Jackie,
Thank you very much it would be very helpful.
John Levic Law married Mary Woodhouse.
She is a half 3rd cousin 3x removed.
They married 28 Oct 1869 at St Stephens, Sheffield.
I will share it with the small group of WOODHOUSE researchers that I keep in touch with.
Thanks for your offer.
Elaine.
Jackie, did John have a brother called Joseph? look at the burials on this site there is one for a Joseph a Slater.
Another thought could John on the burial register be Jno?
Jackie
On johns death certificate, who reported the death please?
Dave
John, the burial record I have shows 'John Law', who dies of old age, was a slater and last known residence was the workhouse.
Dave, it was reported by his daughter, Ellen Fretter (nee Law). The mystery just continues! :)
John - if I have the correct Joseph (and that's the big question), his children were Eliza, John, Thomas, Emma and Elizabeth. All born in the Horsforth/Kirkstall area.
I did - I clicked on the email link and sent it about an hour ago. I've been having some issues with email since they switched the server. Let me try again.
Just resent - let me know if you don't get it.
Received with thanks........Only one and it went into my spam folder.
Its certainly my chap.
Elaine.
PS
I need you to post the 1841 census you have of the family dates and place of birth (Kirkstall?) as I can not see this family in Sheffield in 1841. I used our transcribed 1841 census to check.
The one that I have for my John is the one I'm questioning Elaine. It's from Leeds and shows Joseph as a cloth dresser. I looked at the 1851 record, which is where I got Joseph's other children from. It also shows Joseph as a cloth dresser. So back to the original dilemma - do I have the right Joseph as John's father. I'll send over both pictures for you to look at.
Jackie, age at death is frequently inaccurate, particularly when the person registering it is not the spouse. Notoriously children do not know the exact age of their parents.
Your John was consistently 2 or 3 years older than his wife. His wife died in 1909 age 73. I assume John registered that so it is likey to be accurate. Therefore John must have been at least 75 in 1909 and therefore at least 77 in 1911 when he died. You should place no reliance on his age at death when reported by his daughter
Also you should consider the possibility that John was actually illegit in 1833-4. In that case the name and occupation of his father would just be a lie to cover his illegitimacy.
Dave
Thanks received them both.
Sooooo the only link to Sheffield is the marriage to Sarah King????
Loosing track here.....LOL.1861 he's in Sheffield and then moves on to Rotherham.
Quick look at the census 1841 he's one year old and in 1851 he's 12 year old.
Born 1839. There is a BMD listing for John Law registered Sep 1839 Leeds 23-362... Do you have that registration cert.?
Elaine.
The correct JohnLaw was father to William Henry B 1855 (deaf and dumb) and Ellen b 1856 and husband to Sarah nee King. Consistently through 1861 to 1901 censuses everyone was born Sheffield. Never Leeds.
Dave
Hi Dave. Yes - I agree, that's the correct John Law and my 3x great grandfather. So I will discount the Leeds record. I see what you say about records being 'doctored' - especially if illegitimacy was and issue. That's what is so frustrating - where was this family in 1841? I do have John's burial records which also states he was 75, but that could be coming from relatives as well.
I do - father was William; mother Mary (formerly Rhodes). William was a stone Mason.
The burial record would take the age from the death cert, which was required by them by law in order to bury him
DAVE
just an idea, not checked myself but could john's baptism be actually in Latin so looking on here for a John law would not find him.
Interesting thought John, I've only come across one other record that was in Latin and it was for a marriage certificate for one of my distant relatives to an Irish gal in the Catholic church. Do you know how I might go about finding a record like that - are they even searchable?
Jackie,
Look over to the left and under Parish Records you will see all the churches we have transcribed including RC ones. The dates we covered are there also.
Elaine in Ottawa.
PS I think we must have a connection if the Laws are Sheffield... Slaters. I can't get to where my Thomas was baptised around 1817. BUT will keep looking would have expected to find him at the Cathedral NOT many churches around at that time.
At the Cathedral on 31st Dec 1834 there was a baptism for a Joseph Law, parents Joseph and hannah Joseph was a slater. Joseph who was baptised was born on 30th Jun 1828.
Could it be possible therfore that John was born before 1828 an illegitimate child of Hannah but took the name Law after they wed. I know it says John was 75 ish when he died but perhaps he was much older then we all think.
John
That's an interesting idea John. This family has been very elusive and it just gets more so. What is interesting to me however - and again, it could all be fabrication - is that the census records for John are pretty consistent on when he was born - sometime between 1834 and 1836. I can't imagine he fibbed about that for decades. I guess it's possible. It's funny because I have other relatives that were born out of wedlock and they owned it, but I suppose it's different in every family. I'll keep searching and I know this one will be top of my list when I finally get to England and can search locally.
I can't thank everyone enough for all of your insights and information. My family predominately ended up in the Sheffield/Rotherham area so if there is every anything I an do to help one of you, please just ask. I'm always willing to share anything I have. Jackie
Morning Jackie,
I was having another look at my tree last night.....
Came up with this idea......
Looking at the NBI.....
I could only find two Joseph Law's who were old enough to have fathered a child 1834-1836.
Joseph Law aged 54 buried at St Paul's in 1837 (DOB 1783?)
Joseph Law aged 45 buried Ecclesfield in 1845 (DOB 1800?)
Its a pity no occupations given.
fingers crossed something jumps out for both of us with the "LAW" line.
Elaine.
Jackie - just a thought. I had plasterers in my family and of course they needed something to fall back on if the weather was too bad for building work, or if trade was slack, and so they sometimes worked in the rolling mills. Is it possible that your slater might have worked in the cloth industry just as a sideline?
Heths