Sheffield Indexers

Welcome to our forum ~ please post your questions below.

Sheffield Indexers
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Mary Lizzie Hope

I have recently been dusting off a few brickwalls to see if I can solve any. I've been thrilled to have resolved 3 brickwalls but there are still many standing. I'm hoping perhaps someone can help with this one. On this site, there is a burial that has long perplexed me.
Hope, Mary Lizzie (Child, age 5 Mo).
Died at Pond Hill; Buried on October 21, 1882 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11934, Section X of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: . Remarks
My Hope family lived in and around Pond Hill at that time so I am fairly certain that Mary Lizzie is one of mine but I can't find any proof to link her to the family. GGrandmother Mary Hope had at least 4 children that I know of without benefit of a marriage. She lived at Court 3 Pond Hill in 1884 and at Court 14 Pond St. by 1887. She would have been about 24 when Mary Lizzie was born, assuming the child is hers, and Mary had already had 1 illegitimate birth in 1880. Her sister, Kate was frequently charged with prostitution and had 2 babies that died of neglect, but Kate was only 9 years old in 1882 so this child cannot be Kate's. Alternatively, it could be GGGrandmother Ellen's child. I can find no corresponding birth or death on the GRO and there is no christening showing up as yet. The family were Irish Catholic and seem to have had all other children christened.
Any suggestions how to either prove of disprove that Mary Lizzie belongs to my Hope family.
Thank you in advance.

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Hi Helen

To start the ball rolling, I've checked the original image of the burial record on Family Search and the transcription is correct.

Like you though, I couldn't find a birth or death record for Mary Lizzie. The cemetery must have had a death certificate to be able to conduct the burial though? A bit of a puzzler this one!

Heths

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Morning Helen,

Yes a puzzle, but what comes to mind is why she had been buried in a consecrated section (Anglican) of City Road if she came from a Catholic Family.

Have you tried using our database with just the section.


Elaine.

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

I went back and checked the original CD that we worked from for City Road and our information is correct.

Elaine.

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

The grave contains 18 burials. 3 are adults buried between Sept 29 and October 6th.
The other 15 are children under 2 and all buried between Oct 7 and Nov 6. Very few of those child burials have no death reg on GRO.So clearly for at least this grave City Rd were burying children in 1882 without death cert.
Dave

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Correction. Very few have A death reg on GRO

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Thank you, Dave, Heather and Elaine for your replies. I have no doubt that the transcription is correct. I am just perplexed that there is no corresponding birth or death registered and no christening. I had assumed that a death certificate would be required prior to a burial, but apparently that is not the case, then. Of the Hope burial's on this site, 10 are mine and they are scattered between City Road, Burngreave and St. Michael's with the majority being in Roman Catholic sections or unconsecrated sections. Basically very few of my ancestors who are buried in Sheffield, had family plots. They are almost all buried in what I believe are called common or pauper's graves. I guess, Mary Lizzie Hope will remain a puzzle. I feel she is likely to be a child of Mary Hope.
Helen

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Hi there,

This I think links in with your suggestion that her mother was Mary Hope.

Hope, Mary (Spinster, age 34).
Died at 14ct Pond St; Buried on July 23, 1898 in Unconsecrated ground;
Grave Number 11016, Section AA of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: .

Elaine.

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Was Mary the mother in Sheffield in 1881? Could Mary lizzie hope have been born and baptised in Ireland hence the reason no birth found

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Noted in the Sheffield Independent of 23rd September 1886: Mary Hope took out a prosecution to recover her illegitimate child, called Laura Hope, under two years of age, who had been detained "unlawfully and by force" by George Gillott, the father, an ostler of Pond Hill. Mary had previously obtained an affiliation order against him, but he was not paying her anything, and it was 12s. in arrears. The court found in favour of the father, that he could keep the child, with no penalty. Mary "left the court, talking volubly as to the injustice of the decision". However Gillot was suprised to be told that he would still have to pay the mother for the maintenance of the child.

Re: Mary Lizzie Hope

Yes, Mary Hope was born in Sheffield and lived all of her short life in Sheffield. She died on July 28, 1898 at Court 14 Pond St. Thank you Ted, I have that newspaper article. The daughter in the article that is named as Laura was actually Nora and Mary and George must have come to some sort of agreement outside of court, because Nora was returned to Mary and remained with her mother until her mother's death and then remained with her mother's common law husband after that. Supposedly within the family, or at least between her sisters, Nora was referred to as "the illegitimate one", but in fact all of Mary's children were illegitimate. Her first daughter was Harriet born in the workhouse on June 5, 1880 and baptism is on this site. Then Nora was born on Aug. 4, 1884 and again the baptism is on this site. Her birth certificate shows father as George Hope and mother as Mary Hope late Cunningham. Lies were told. Mary was never a Cunningham and George was actually George Gillot as the newspaper article stated. By about 1887, Mary seems to have settled into a domestic relationship with William Toes and they had 2 daughters together, though there was no marriage. My grandmother, Mary Ellen was born on July 10, 1890 and Doris was born on May 25, 1895. Mary Ellen's birth certificate shows father William Toes and mother Mary Toes late Hope. Doris's certificate shows father blank and mother Mary Hope, but Doris was given the middle name of Tows (spelt with a w). The entire Hope family appear regularly in the newspapers with everything from petty crimes, violent assaults, major crimes and tragic deaths. Mary Lizzie's birth and death in 1882 would fit quite neatly in between Harriet and Nora, so this is why that burial has been on my radar for many years now. I had hoped I could find some evidence to make certain that Mary Lizzie was in fact Mary's daughter. Mary's mother, Ellen was 41 years old at the time Mary Lizzie was born and died and she had had what I assume was her last child in 1878, so there is a chance that Mary Lizzie could have been Ellen's child. On a positive note, despite all the turmoil of their childhood, Nora, Mary Ellen and Doris went on to have very respectable lives.
Helen