I know this is not to do with Sheffield of which I apologise but after at least 15 years of trying I still am getting nowhere and would desperately like to fill in the gap before the persons whose tree it is are no longer with us as they are both in late 80s

on 29th September 1864 in the Lewisham union RD Henry Wilson was born.

His father was Elijah Wilson a Hammerman in the Royal Arsenal (so I know its the right birth) and it states his mother was Charlotte Wilson formerly Humphrey.

Elijah registered the birth.

I am looking for a marriage between Elijah and Charlotte but not yet found a match.

I know that Elijah was born in 1825 in Nottingham and his parents were Elijah Wilson and Sarah Barwick.

This is what we are guessing at Charlotte Humphrey born in Mansfied in 1826 parenst Francis Humphrey and Elizabeth Neale.

We are also guessing at Charlotte married a William Wire in 1849 in Nottinghamshire,

I can't even find a marriage of a Charlotte Wire to an Elijah Wilson

I am sure Elijah would not lie about who the mother of his child was so my question to you all is

Can we find a maiiage for Elijah and Charlotte?

PS As some of you may know as I work in hospitality I have a few long few days ahead of me so apologises if its ages before I reply but may I take this opportunity in wishing everyone seasons greetings,

John

To start the ball rolling...

1861 census, 68 St James Place, Plumstead
Elijah Wilson, Head, married age 35, hammerman Rl Arsenal, born Notts Nottingham
Charlotte Wilson wife married age 35 born Mansfield
William Wilson son age 15 brass moulder Ryl Arsenal, born Nottingham
Samuel Wilson brother single, age 30, wheelwright born Nottingham

1871 census, 20 Offord Rd, St Clement, Finsbury
Charlotte Wilson widow 45, laundress born Nottingham Mansfield
Henry Wilson, son aged 6, born Kent Woolwich
Elizabeth Murphy mother widow aged 69, born Derby. Place name hard to decipher, looks something like Norrington

Heths

Also 1851 census at 28 (Mt East ?? ) Street, Nottingham, lodging with the Flynn family:
William Wyres lodger married aged 24, framework knitter born Nottingham
Charlotte do married aged 25, sempstress born Mansfield Notts.

Heths

Heather, Thank you for this.

Interesting regarding the mother's name as Murphy so two things now come to mind.

1. Did the registrar mis hear what Elijah said and wrote Humphrey instead of Murphy so hence it was really Charlotte Murphy we are looking hence the Wire connection is completely wrong

or

2. Is the information correct it is just that Elizabeth had remarried

so I need to find a death for a Francis Humphrey and amarriage of an Elizabeth Humphrey to a Mr Murphy all which occured before 1861

and if no matches on that then the birth I am looking for is a Charlotte Murphy circa 1825

something to ponder over after Xmas

and a son aged 15 that was never mentioed so that assumes then Elijah was married circa 1845 to a person unknown to us the question then is who?

this brick wall is getting harder to smash not easier.

John

Slowly getting there....

Birth 1846 Nottingham, William "Wise" - MMN Humphrey.

1851 census, Sherwood Lane Nottingham
Francis Humfries, Head 48 Framework knitter born Notts, Pleasley Hill
Elizabeth Humfries wife 49 stitcher born Derbyshire Normanton
Thomas do son 15 framework knitter born Mansfield
Ruth Mary do daughter 12 lace drawer born Mansfield
William Wores lodger aged 6 born Nottingham
Isaac Humfries lodger widower age 49 born Notts Pleasley Hill
Selina do daughter aged 10 nurse girl born Nottingham

I am assuming form this that William Wores / William Wise was Charlotte's son.
That could be the lad listed as William Wilson in 1861, if Elijah adopted him?
Also the age and birthplace for mother Elizabeth seem to fit with the Elizabeth Murphy in 1871.

Death 1859 Shoreditch, William Wyres. Is this Charlotte's first husband?

Heths

William Wire married Charlotte Humphrey 8th Oct 1849 at St Stephens, Sneinton.

Transcript only from FMP

Anne

Heather and Anne Thank you

Heather, name variants are something to belive but never dawned on me as Wise.

Think you are spot on with the 1851 census as far as William is concerned (the one aged 6)

were they allowed in those days to register the surname of the father etc without them being married.

I o like the sound of the death of William in 1859 you found so that hopefully narrows things down regarding when Elijah married Charlotte probably using another variant.

John

PS we need to find the death of Francis Humphry and Elizabeth remarrying.. I wonder if she reverted to the surname Neale to remarry?

John

Will have a big study when on my days off next week Thurs and Fri

right two days off now to try and solve this brick wall.

as yet found no marriage (ps would a marriage in the army be on the GRO index or are those records seperate hence the reson we can't find)

No death found yet for Francis humphries or a marriage for Elizabeth to become Murphy.

PS just checked thr GRO William Wyres died in 1859 in shoreditch was aged 1 so theat rules the death out.

that brick wall has started to rebuild.

PS Heather,, there is a death of a William Whyres aged 31 in St Olave, Southwark in 1862,, your views please.

According to Free BMD, between 1837 and 1990 in England and Wales there is NO marriage of an Elijah Wilson to a woman with first name Charlotte.
It was quite common for people to live together as man and wife without going through an official marriage ceremony.
Dave

Thanks Dave, that has to be what happened, likewise with an Elizabeth Humphrey marrying a Mr Murphy

Hi John

This looks like Charlotte's first husband in the 1861 census:

8 Richmond St, St Mary Nottingham
William Whyer, head married age 34, cotton framework knitter
Helen do wife married 29, lace drawer
Mary Ann do daughter 7, scholar
Emelia Whyer daughter 3
William do son aged 1
All the above born in Nottingham

This explains why we can't find the marriage

Heths

Heather, I think more to the point is we can rule out that William Whyer death I found in 1862 and the one you found on the 1861 census is the wrong family.

As Dave said he has found no marriage to and Elijah Wilson to a charlotte so that to me rules out that if there was a marriage it could have been Charlotte's third but still used her maiden name for the birth of Henry in 1864.

Both the Francis Humphrey deaths in 1866 ages tie up but I have not found any burial information on FMP or my index cds which could confirm if any of them are correct. Perhaps Francis did not die and the enumerator just misheard her name and put Murphy after all i suppose it could sound like Humphrey to a southerner.