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thank you Elaine I have the death cert and will for this Henry he did indeed mention Richard potter.He left the money to his son and daughters ann and Lucy. no mention of Mary Jane whom I have the birth cert for and Betsy the other daughter had already passed away. I think I am going to have to shelf this branch especially has I cannot find Lucy or Richard after they married on the census yet I do have Lucys death cert.It seems a few fibs were made to hide certain things.
And if I went through every death of Richard potters from 72-82 it would get costly
I did get the shardlow cert but I do not believe it was him has he was down has a farmer
I am still waiting for the wedding cert to come through for Richard and Lucy
Thankyou everyone for your help and kindness and mostly support
kind regards
hazel Kirk
Hazel, I have sent you the Lucy marriage cert.
Dave
could richard have been his middle name and not even his wife and children knew
With regard to Richard Potter we have found nothing before the 1861 Census.
On that he was 50, a fishmonger and born in Scarborough. Five months later , from Alma St, he marries Lucy Coleman. He says he is 40 and his father was John Potter, a CUTLER.
I am doubtful that a person born in Scarborough would have a cutler as a father.
Dave
I'm now doubtful that the Richard found on the 1861 census is correct. Presume it does say widower on mcert. I think we need to search the 1861 census again for a Richard Potter aged about 40. Did we find him in 1871?
Wild guess but could his birthplace have been Spotborough..that's Doncaster area isn't it...
John
John,
We have gone through all the census many times. You have FMP the same as we do. Family search,Free Reg our extensive database have all been covered.
The address on the marriage cert is indeed Alma St as is the 1861 census.
I would suggest you leave it alone check your correct info out and see if you have an error.
What relationship is Richard Potter to you? The Coleman family has been researched extensively by Lyn so you can leave that side of the family alone. She also stated she had tried to Help Hazel with Richard and came to a dead end.
Not a successful outcome but I think we have gone as far as we can.
Elaine in Ottawa.
Just to add.
I have just looked at all my notes.
The census for 1861 was April I believe and he did not marry until August.There is only one Potter on our Apprentice list over to the left. (John a scissor smith) father a Joseph.
I did see many days ago find a Richard Potter as a prisoner on police reports but I can not find it again.(FMP?)
Sooooo John check over your notes again and go from there.
Elaine.
Hazel,
Here is the marriage of Lucy Coleman's older sister Betsy Maria. (from Marriage records on this site) just a few months before she died (you have the burial record also from this site) :
COLEMAN, Elizabeth (Spinster, age 32, ~, residing at Duke St).
Married William HYDES, on January 6, 1864, by Richard Heslop (Banns) at
St John, Park. Father's name is Henry Coleman (Fish Monger).
Married in the presence of Amos Booth (mark),Louisa Jordon (mark).
Notes: Groom signed with a mark.
Page No: 87 Reg No: 173
Note she married in the name of ELIZABETH Coleman. She was literate, unlike her younger sister Lucy.
Interestingly she said her father Henry was a FISHMONGER. We know him from other records as a General Dealer but it is thought provoking that his daughter described him more specifically as a Fishmonger so soon after sister Lucy married a Richard Potter, a Fishmonger, and Richard was the man who registered Betsy's death.
We know that Lucy Coleman/Potter is missing from each of the three consecutive censuses 1861, 1871 and 1881. But we are sure from other BMD records that she was living in the Kelham Island region during that whole period. To miss one census can be an accident, but to miss 3 like that would imply that she must have deliberately avoided the census on at least one occasion, probably 2 occasions and maybe even all three. I wonder what she was trying to hide, or perhaps what she was afraid of.
Finallly we have found no trace of Richard Potter before the 1861 census. I wonder if for some reason Richard Potter was a new persona he took on and that he went under a different name in the earlier censuses.
Dave
Dave,
Completely agree about being missing off three census records is strange. I assume that missing pages have been ruled out.
Was Lucy definitely born a Coleman or could even Richard have been born a Coleman and there was something strange going on especially if they were blood related.
Could the family have not agreed to the marriage etc or and I think this is more likely they were both criminals of some sort and did not want the authorities to find out.
I wonder if the quarter sessions are on line somewhere in case that they had served a punishment of some sort but now thats done with wanted to lie low.
John
Hazel et al.
Just a hint of a hope on the ID of Richard Potter who appears on only one census (1861) and for whom we have no death.
There is a Richard Potter born 1815 in Thornton le Clay (north east of York, south west of SCARBOROUGH. His father was called John.
He married in 1840 to very pregnant Sarah Oates and their daughter Lois was born shortly after. They are on the 1841 census in Flaxton, north of York.
They had a second child (boy) called Oates in 1843.
Both Lois and Oates died in a 3 month period in 1847 and in 1849 their daughter Henrietta was born and the family is in Flaxton in 1851 census.
In the 1861 census Sarah and Daughter Henrietta are still in Flaxton, Sarah is Married, but HER HUSBAND RICHARD IS MISSING. Could he have abandoned her and gome to Sheffield and (bigamously) married Lucy Coleman?, We know that Lucy and Richard lost the 2 children they had and there was Lucy's illegitimate daughter who would need to live with them in 1867. Did he abandon her and go back to Sarah in Flaxton?.
If this is true then he would have reason while in Sheffield to lay low and conceal his origins
In 1871 he is back in Flaxton with his wife and daughter and also in 1881. He died in Flaxton in 1884.
The elephant in the room on this is the Richard Potter who is on the Burgess Rolls in Sheffield in 1875/6 at 1 court 2 Cross Love Street. Note that Lucy Potter died at 2 Court 1 Cross Love Street in 1882. That is a different address. Cross Love Street had 2 rows of four houses, 1 3 5 7 and 2 4 6 8 There were 2 courts, one behind each row.
In 1881 at 2 Court 1 was a Mills family, so Lucy was not yet in that address.
In order to be on the Burgess Rolls after the Second Reform Act of 1867 a common working man had to satisfy 3 criteria:
1. He had to be head of a household
2. He had to be paying rent of more than £10 per year
3. He had to apply to be a voter.
There was a Richard Potter, brick maker, living in the area. He was more likely to be the 1875/6 Burgess Rolls man. I cannot believe that a Fish Hawker would apply to be a voter.
All this is possible. I can find nothing to disprove that Richard Potter born 1815 in Thornton le Clay was in Sheffield for a period between 1851 and about 1867. But of course I cannot prove he was.
Dave
Hi Dave
In 1861 theres a Richard Potter, born 1816 Thornton le Clay, Shepherd, Married, living as a lodger in a farm in Bossall (close to Flaxton).
Given that in 1841 and 1851 Richard Potter married to Sarah is an Agricultural Labourer, not a stretch to then be down as a Shepherd - could this Richard be the same - lodging away from Sarah for whatever reason?
Denise
Denise, thank you. That is the piece which disproves my theory. I would have found that if I had searched on Ancestry instead of FMP.
Back to square one.
I am still confident that the Richard Potter of Burgess Rolls 1875/6 was not the one who married Lucy Coleman.
Dave