Welcome to our forum ~ please post your questions below.
Dave, going to your posting where you found the family is Spilsby in 1861 and 1851, are you sure this is the same family? I know people made mistakes with ages on census returns but with only 1 yesrs difference with Henry!!!!!
I just wonder if we have two families here and they are related ...you know as well as I do two families can give their kids the same names.
John
I can confirm that the Coleman family research is correct as they are part of my husband's Howsam (varied spellings) family from Spilsby who moved into Sheffield @ 1860s. Ann Coleman was the one who married into the Howsam family. I have been trying to help Hazel solve the Potter mystery but failed - (my ancestry sub had lapsed) so suggested she try the message forum to see if anyone could spot something or have links with the Potter family.
Lyn
Hazel
There are 6 big mysteries still to solve:
1. Where is Lucy in 1871 and is Richard with her?
2. When and where did Richard die
3. When and where was Mary Ann Potter, daughter of Lucy, born.
4. Why did Mary Ann Potter say that Lucy was widow of Joseph Potter
5. Why did Jane Potter declare her father was Joseph Potter
6. When and where born was Henry Potter, died age 10 weeks in Q3 1881, son of Mary Ann Potter.
The latest positive sighting we have of Richard is 1865 when he registered the death of William Coleman.
I wonder who registered this death of Lucy's mother in 1867?
COLEMAN, Mary Ann (Wife of Henry Coleman, age 62).
Died at 49 Nursery Street; Buried on March 10, 1867 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 10, Section O7 of Burngreave Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: . Remarks: Re-opened 2814.
Plot Owner: of . Page No
In the same grave is her husband Henry d 1870 and their daughter Betsey (Hides)(d 1864)
Dave
Hi
On the 1871 census there's a Mary Ann Potter aged 11 (born Sheffield) living as a general servant at 23 Nursery Street.
In 1881 Mary Potter aged 20 (born Sheffield) is a Domestic Servant on Bridge Street.
In 1891 Mary Ann Potter aged 29 is a General Servant at Scotland Street in the home of Charles Lawton . It says she was born in Manchester but...
In 1892 Mary Ann Potter marries Charles Lawton (at St Lukes Hollis Croft) - her fathers name is Joseph Potter (deceased).
On the 1901 census Mary Ann is down as being born in Spilsby.
Denise
the death cert for Mary Coleman states wife of Henry Coleman (general dealer) and was registered by Lucy potter present at death
Instant Messenger: hazel808@msn.com
Henry Colemans death was registered by his daughter Ann howsham fletcher he died in the union workhouse
Hazel
I know you have the birth cert for Jane Potter in 1872. Who registered the birth and what was the birth address please?
Dave
PS Wow Denise, great find
Lucy potter registered it and it looks like 20 OBORNE STREET BRIGTSIDE BRIELOW
hi Denise I cannot find a birth on gro for a Mary Ann /Mary potter born in Sheffield or Spilsby and none with mothers name
Denise
You have solved something for me too now. - Taken from my research done some years ago mostly before Ancestry etc.
Ann Hows(h)am nee Coleman (sister of Lucy Coleman), died 12 April 1898 of bronchitis at 77 Mona Rd - present at death was her niece M. A. Lawton of that address. Whether Ann was actually living there I don't know but a check of the street directory gives a Charles Lawton as the householder. Burial was 16th April 1898 at Burngreave Cemetery grave N5 38. For some reason the burial book states she died at back of 71 Scotland St.
Thank you. I could never fit where a niece M A Lawton fitted in and have given up on it so thanks to Hazel's query and Denise's answer it just goes to prove our Family History is never really finished until we have that missing piece of the jigsaw.
Lyn
PS thanks Elaine for your kind words
Hazel
I have checked the Nursery Street entries on the 1871 census and there are several blocks of numbers missing I suspect that Lucy (perhaps with Richard) was in one of those missing houses.
Dave
Hi Lyn
Wow - Thanks - pleased to have put a bit of the jigsaw in place. Now lets hope we can all crack the rest!!
Denise
Could this be the one.......
Mary Ann Potter Sep qtr 1866 Sheffield 9c 399
Mary Ann Potter Dec qtr 1871 Sheffield 9c 437
or
Mary Ann Coleman mmn Coleman March qtr 1861 Leicester 7a pg 156.
There is also a Sarah Elizabeth Coleman in 1864 but Lucy would have been married and a Potter by that date.
So often back then unmarried pregnant girls would be sent to relatives away from her home and neighbours wagging tongues.Then come back home and her parents taking on the child.
Just ideas. I also wonder if Richard left Lucy at some point or are they Methodists and thats why we are not finding baptisms etc.
Elaine.
Hi
Bit more of the puzzle ...
When Richard and Lucy marry they both give their address as Alma Street.
1861 census - 8 Alma Street, Richard Potton (incorrectly transcribed as it is Potter), widower, Fishmonger aged 50, birthplace Scarboro.
Living on his own prior to his marriage to Lucy.
So 10 years older than the age he gave at his marriage.
Denise
Both the Marys have different mothers name not potter/coleman also the Sarah is not connected her parents were Thomas and Mary thanks again to everyone
Hazel,
Who were the witnesses at the marriage of Jane Potter to John Mackinder?
Dave
John's sister Esther mackinder and a William (looks like Tointon)
Not sure if relevant or if I am completely wrong but there was a pub in Sheffield calle The Manchester so was there an area of Sheffield called manchester at the time and if so is this why Manchester has been put as her place of birth... probably wrong haha
Well the Manchester Pub is on Nursery Street, even though the census says 'Lancashire, Manchester'. You never know...
Denise
I have gone through GRO deaths from 1872/1881 searching for Joseph or Richard only one Joseph died in Sheffield in 1879 aged 74 lived at 4 court 28 high street attercliffe his son William potter registered that death
I went from those dates has Jane was born in 1872.
Also Jane ann was born in Sheffield to Richard & Lucy Richard stated again he was a fishmonger she was cert says 1 January 1863 address was Harvest lane Brightside brielow
her death says behind 41 nursery street Richard registered this death Lucy would have been around 8 months pregnant when Jane ann passed
Harping back to the three Potter daughters.
Jane Ann 1863-1865
Lucy Ann 1865-1867
Jane 1872........
To put the cat amongst the pigeons..... What if Richard was no longer around or had died and Lucy was living with someone else. The census being in his name.(1871) That five year gap bothers me.
Elaine.
Dave/Denise,
Does this fit in with any of the research you have seen.
POTTER, Joseph (Widower, age 30, Striker, residing at Brightside).
Married Sarah Ann PEARSON, on March 22, 1874, by Thomas Hulme (Banns) at
St Thomas, Brightside. Father's name is Joseph Potter (Carter).
Married in the presence of William Potter (mark),Ann Hall (mark).
Notes: Groom signed with a mark.
This family are certainly confusing. Needs a flow sheet to keep them all sorted.
Elaine.
Hi everyone
I have been pondering why Mary Ann Potter declared on her marriage that her father was called Joseph Potter. As I showed earlier Mary Ann was born before the marriage to Richard,( and she was almost certainly born in Spilsby) so she was illegitimate (if she had been registered it would have been as Coleman)
It is clear that Mary Ann knew she was illegitimate and that Richard was not her father. In situations like that many illegitimate people invent a father name at their marriage in order to conceal their illegitimacy. So I believe Joseph Potter was an invention.
Turning now to Jane (b 1872) who married just a year after Mary Ann. She also named a Joseph Potter as her father. I think that means that Jane knew she was also illegitimate and perhaps the 2 (half) sisters colluded on the invented name of the father. If Jane was actually illegitimate then presumably Richard had passed away before she was conceived. We know Richard was alive in 1865.
Hazel, I see that you can now get Death Certs for £2.50 as digital image. May I suggest you take a look at this one
POTTER, RICHARD 59
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in SHARDLOW Volume 07B Page 230
Denise has shown he was actually 50 in 1861 so the age would fit very well. Maybe he travelled away to get fish supplies and died some distance from home.
As I already indicated, it was virtually impossible for a person to die and not be registered because the cemetery would demand a death cert before burial. Therefore either Richard's death was registered somewhere or he died in secret and was not found or he absconded and changed his name.
Dave
My only issue is how could Lucy name Richard on their birth certs if they were not married or if the girls were not is.it certainly is a boggle I'm so greatful to lyn telling me about this site.i will certainly look at that death
Hazel, I now know that death is wrong. It was announced in a newspaper.
Dave
Could Joseph and Richard Potter have been related? Brother I doubt but could Joseph in fact have been a son of Richard from his first marriage..as you have said we know nothing about it
"In situations like that many illegitimate people invent a father name at their marriage in order to conceal their illegitimacy. So I believe Joseph Potter was an invention."
Maybe true but I have come across many who used their grandfathers first name when they married. Because they were the people who had brought the child up.
Elaine.
The Burgess Roles for 1875-1876 list Richard Potter as having a qualifying property at 1 Court 2 Cross Love Street. Which is where Lucy Potter died years later.
Denise
Denise, please could you tell me where I find the burgess rolls on the internet, or is it part of FMP.
Brilliant Denise.
Assuming Richard Potter was AKA Joseph Potter then everything all falls into place.
Hazel, suggest you get this death cert to see who registered it:
POTTER, JOSEPH 74
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 267
Here is the burial from this site:
POTTER, Joseph (, died on ?, at the age of 74).
Resided at Deakin Square, Attercliffe and buried on 31 Aug 1879 in ? ground;
Grave Number ?, Section ? of Attercliffe Cemetery, Attercliffe.
Notes: . Place of Birth: . Parent(s):
Dave
That death re Joseph is the one I have died aged 74 in august 1879 registered by William potter (son) but says they lived on 28 high street attercliffe and Joseph was a master carter
On Janes wedding cert she said Joseph was a carter
In researching my own family lines - I have found grandfather's named as fathers on marriage certificates when someone was illegitimate rather than leave it blank. I have known unmarried/widowed brothers take on their deceased brother's wife and family. People could lie and get away with it more easily or simply state something they did not know the truth of. A woman could name her deceased husband as the father of her later 'illegitimate' children years after his death. One in my maternal line had 3 such children and later married their true father when his wife died and then they went on use their true father's name. We not only research our family tree but we uncover their lies too and isn't it fun. :grin:
I think everyone has done brilliantly on this and looked outside the box giving Hazel a lot of food for thought.
Lyn
Hazel. This Joseph can be traced back to 1871 and 1861 with his wife and children. He was born in Notts definitely not right for us
Dave
So let see if I can get this correct.
We are looking for a Richard Potter born Scarborough around 1811 and probably married circa 1835ish but we are not sure where. Has he been found yet on the 1841 census?
Do we know think that Richard and Joseph are two seperate people or are we still on course to think they are the same.
Are we also sure that we have not got two families mixed up here, yes they could be related bbut we all know that two families could easily name their children the same.
If I am going off track then sorry, I need to go and buy a new thinking cap as I think the one I have must have broken!!!!!!!
John
Ps there is a marriage of a Richard Potter to Mary Saunderson in 1840 at Hutton Cranswick, this is a village near Driffield. Presume we can rule this out.
Last night I decided to match some of the Sheffield "Potters" up and see if they had a connection with Richard the fishmonger.
Managed to trace the Attercliffe Richard (1833) (Brick maker) back to 1841.
His father was a John and they were all born in Leicestershire ( Keyworth).
Now to Richard (Fishmonger) we have not been able to prove ...one his age and two he was indeed born in Scarborough. He did state his father was a John on his marriage to Lucy.
I believe I was told many years ago that it only became law about 1875 that All children were to be registered. Many folks thought baptism was good enough in the early years of registration. Another fact was that the onus was on the registrar to find these children.
I am sure others will verify those facts.?
Richard Potter is a very common name and part of the problem without those early
census to guide us.
BUT like Denise I will carry on....LOL.
Elaine.
Yes Elaine that is correct re birth reg. I also learned that the onus on ensuring a birth was registered back in time fell upon the person who owned or rented the property where the birth took place. My grandmother had an illegitimate child in Llandudno in 1903 and because her fella was a travelling entertainer they didn't register the birth, perhaps they didn't know they should, and they had moved on. 7 weeks later he returned to Llandudno from Chester to register the birth presumably after trying to do so in Chester and was fined 42 shillings (£2.10p) for the late reg. A lot of money back then.
Dave, thanks for the info re Hutton Cranswick so we know that is wrong.
Richard in 1861 was 50 years old so that rules out another option I had that he was serving in the armed forces etc.
I just hope the answer to all this isn't staring us in the face.
I wonder if he had any shops etc and if so would he be in the Kelly's around the mid 1860s pity they were not available on line.
Finally another crazy idea of mine...could Richard be in fact his middle name. I mean we know his father was called John so was he really John Richard Potter and known to evryone as Richard to save confusion.
Hazel.
A bit of a long shot. You could try contacting the Wakefield Deeds Registry to see what they have on Richard Potter and his house on Cross Love Lane. For a small fee they will do a search for you.
https://www.wyjs.org.uk/archive-service/registry-of-deeds-and-family-and-local-history/
Dave
Thankyou I will try them I have made a list from gro of all the Richard potters whom died between 71-82 roughly going on the age he put in the 1861 census
Hazel
In 1851 (still there in 1861 in Spilsby there is just one Coleman family other than yours. But the females in that family are all too young to have children th the late 1850s.
COLEMAN, GEORGE HENRY MAULKINSON -
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 486
COLEMAN, GEORGE HENRY MAULKINSON 1
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 312
COLEMAN, HENRY -
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 517
I believe both these illegitimate boys must be from girls in your Coleman family (ie Betsy, Ann, Lucy)
Henry in 1859 is the perfect age to be the William who died in 1865. Presumably he must be Lucy's and the name was changed later to William, perhaps by Lucys parents.
The earlier one, George Henru, was presumably from Betsy or Ann.
Dave
the Henry Coleman 1859 has come up has Lucy's child Thankyou
Can you give the details please?
Dave
Ann Coleman had married John Howsam in July 1853 and their first son Geo Henry Hows(h)am was born in the Dec qtr of the same year
born jan 1850 can't make out actual date think it may be 30th Henry Coleman mother Lucy Coleman unmarried mother born union workhouse hunddleby
I think Lucy must have fibbed I have looked on 1861 census and cannot find her living on Alma street
oh my the plot thickens ive just ordered betsy hides nee Coleman death cert and again Richard potter registers this death she lived 22 Marcus street says wife of William hides and Richard puts his address has 22 Marcus street
Hazel,
Because Henry (1859) was born in the Workhouse it would be impossible for Lucy to avoid registering him.
Are you aware that the deaths of both Henry Coleman(Kelham St 1870) and Mary Ann Coleman Nursery Road 1867) are in Sheffield Newspapers.
Also there is a Probate Record for Henry in 1870. Unfortunately there does not appear to be a will.
A picture is now beginning to emerge of what probably happened.
Can you please tell me the birth address of Jane Ann (1863), Lucy Ann 1865.
Dave
Correction: From Ancestry:
18 Nov 1870 The Will of Henry Coleman late of Sheffield, General Dealer, was proved at Wakefield by the oath of John Houseman of Attercliffe, labourer, the sole executor.
Effects under £100
Allowing for inflation that means he probably left assets equivalent to several thousands of pounds (up to a possible £14000) in todays money.
Jane ann Harvest lane Brightside bier low
Lucy ann union workhouse Sheffield
Hazel, you can purchase Henry's will at the probate search service of GRO
Dave
The John Houseman of Attercliffe, labourer,mentioned as sole executor was Ann Coleman's husband. Hardly anyone spells or pronounces the Howsam name correctly. Even had Mouseman too!
when and where did Betsy marry? if the answer has been posted before sorry an opticians I need to go
Hi Guys especially DaveT, JohnS and Hazel,
Can we try and summarize what we know about Robert and put this line to bed as I don't feel we are not getting any closer to him especially where Sheffield research is concerned.
As we have proved that the first two daughters of Richard & Lucy had died as infants. Jane Ann died 1865 & Lucy Ann died 1867.
There is only the question outstanding of Jane born 1872 with a questionable father.
Maybe not the results you wanted Hazel but its still more than you had.
Elaine in Ottawa.
I believe I have a possible solution.
Richard Potter age 50, widower living alone and born Scarborough married Lucy Colman age 27 in 1861 in Sheffield. Lucy had recently arrived with her family from Spilsby, Lincs and she came with 2 illegitimate babies Willian and Mary Ann.
The two babies remained with Lucy's parents while Richard and Lucy lived in various addresses nearby and had 2 daughters in 1863 (jane Ann) and 1865 (Lucy Ann)
In a very short space of time William died age 6, 1865 and Jane Ann age 2 in 1865. I assume Mary Ann (about 5 in 1865) remained with her grandparents.
Then in 1867, separated by about only a month, Lucy Ann and Lucy Potters mother Mary Ann Coleman both died. This means that Richard Potter suddenly had no children, his wife had one ( illegit Mary Ann age 6/7) and therefore there was nowhere else for Mary Ann to go except to live with her mother and her step father Richard.
I suspect this was too much for Richard who had no other family in Sheffield and he may have absconded to somewhere he had lived before in his long life.
Mary Ann would then live with her mother Lucy Potter. Meantime how could they live without a breadwinner? Did they go to the Workhouse or did Lucy find a way to earn money!!
Mary Ann was put out to work in 1870/71 at age 10/11 leaving Lucy alone.
Lucy then had Jane Potter in 1872 and rather than admit she was illegitimate she falsely declared on Registration that her father was Richard (not uncommon for that to happen).
So when Lucy died her daughter Mary Ann declared an invented father Joseph, who by definition would need to be called Potter. Maybe there was a real Joseph, but his real surname would (likely) not be Potter.
Maybe Richard Potter kept his name, maybe changed his age, but in this scenario he would die a long way away, maybe the wrong age, and maybe a different name. You would never be able to d prove his identity from a death record
I look forward to hearing what Lucy's father's Will says.
Sorry this is lacking in the detailed referencees. I have them all in a detailed timeline and happy to provide them.
Dave
hi Lynn has stated what is written on the probate record he left £100 to Joh housham his son in law.thankyou for all your help
1. I found siblings for my Jane potter
2.i cannot find a birth for MARY ANN COLEMN/POTTER
3.seems a lot of fibs were made and I think I may just have to leave it has a brick wall because I cannot find Lucy on alma street either when she stated she lived there when she married Richard I also cannot find a death for him
but I would like to express my gratitude for all your help
Hazel and Lyn
The probate record does NOT say he left £100 to Richard Houseman. It says he left total assets of NOT MORE THAN £100 and Richard Houseman was the sole EXECUTOR, ie the man charged with distributing those assets to the list of people Henry wrote in his will.
There will be a lot of detail inthe will about who got what and who was related to home.
It will e a gold mine of information about his heirs.
You Need To Buy that Will
DAVE
Hazel, You can order the will here
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
It will cost you £1.50 (yes that much) and will be delivered electronically to your account, which you need to set up (no cost), within a couple of days.
Please let me know if you have any problem with the ordering.
Dave
Hi Hazel,
As far as I know........Robert was living on Alma St and in the many many marriage
registers I have looked at it was quite common to see both bride & groom with the same address. I think they were not too concerned as long as they had one address that was in the Parish.
Elaine in Ottawa.
Ps you say you can not find a birth for Mary Ann Coleman/Potter
The only one I came across was born & registered in Leicester in 1861.
Are you sure she is one of yours??
Elaine.
Lucy Coleman Bap 17th Dec 1834 in Spilsby Lincs father Henry & mother Mary.
DOB 24 Nov 1834. Age matches hers quoted on her marriage cert. Henry's occupation was a Haberdasher.
Information found on FreeReg
The baptism took place at the "Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in Spilsby"
Thats why we have the problem of finding information.......
Elaine.
Hazel - John Houseman (Howsam) was the executor of Henry's will not the recipient.
Hazel
Would you mind please sending me copies of the 1865 birth registration of Lucy Ann Potter, her 1867 death registratiom and the 1867 death registration for Mary Ann Coleman.
dave
Sent Dave
Hazel, I havenot received them
I have just received the will of Henry Coleman he left everything to his wife Mary and upon her death it was to be split between his children Edward,Ann and Lucy ( their husbands are named) it also states the it is for them hem not the husbands
Hazel, thanks for the copy of the will.
The date of the Will is 1st August 1866. So this tells us that on that date Lucy and Richard were still together. Unfortunately it tells us nothing about what happened after that date.
We do know that Henry's wife died in 1867 and Henry himself died in 1870. So in late 1870 Lucy received her inheritance of maybe up to £30, so around the time of the 1871 census she was relatively rich.
Dave
hi Dave there was another daughter to Henry &Mary a child called Mary in 1843 she went on to have the child (John who is on the census with Henry later named William
Hazel. Thanks. I know that Mary Jane Coleman was born 1843 Spilsby (mmn Whatton).She was with her parents and family in 1851 census. However I cannot trace her thereafter.
How do you know she was mother of John please?
Dave
I was curious and looked at births and found a cert with Mary named has his mother he had not been given a christian name when registered though also she is not named in the will either is she which I find strange
has a marriage been found yet between a coleman and a whatton
Hazel. That unmamed boy was birth registered in Q2 1861 which is AFTER the 1861 Census (which was end March 1861) . He may possibly have been the son of Mary Jane, Lucy's younger sister born 1843, but he cannot possibly be the John Coleman age 1 on the 1861 Census.
Dave
The only marriage I found for a Henry Coleman and a Mary Whattam (various spellings was) -
Mary Watton
Gender Female
Record Type Marriage
Marriage Date 15 Apr 1824
Marriage Place Saint Leonard, Shoreditch: Shoreditch High Street, Hackney, England
Spouse Henry Coleman
Register Type Parish Register
I had done my research years ago before the advent of computers etc. I think I got it from the IGI - now it does show on ancestry.
Both Henry b c 1798 and Mary were born in Leicestershire as it states in the census.
Familysearch gives us Henry Coleman Coleman
Birth Date 25 Apr 1797
Religion Anglican
Father's Name Thos
Mother's Name Sarah
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 18 Jun 1797
Event Place Great Bowden, Leicestershire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Leicestershire,England,Great Bowden