Sheffield Indexers

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Mar 5, 2023 - 12:40PM

Francis Hawke

I’m stuck with one of my ancestors, James Vickers (c1737-1809), so I’ve been researching his acquaintances. This lead me to look at Francis Hawke, a filesmith and fellow Methodist, who was buried in Sheffield on 25th October 1805.

From “Reminiscences of Old Sheffield”, Hawke’s sister was James Vickers’ first wife. Another sister of Hawke’s married Josiah Stephenson.

I’ve found a record for John Vickers (who possibly was James’ son) marrying a Sarah Hawke in Sheffield on 29th Feb 1788. Witness was George Butcher (and from James Vickers will at National Archives was possibly John’s brother-in-law), but struggling to break through - looking for any records relating to Francis Hawke, his sisters and their husbands - thanks!

Possible marriages for Francis include Ann Rogg in 1760 and Keturah Hoole in 1786.

Mar 5th, 2023 - 12:40 PM

Moira

Mar 6, 2023 - 9:02AM

Re: Francis Hawke

James VICARS, baptised 8 July 1737 Sheffield P.C. Father, James a labourer.

There are three more baptisms on this site under 'Vicars' with the same father.

Moira.

James Taylor

Mar 6, 2023 - 9:37AM

Re: Francis Hawke

Thank you - I note that there was a James, son of James, a husbandman, who was apprenticed to Christopher Greaves, a filesmith, in 1758 and granted his freedom in 1763, although this would put his aged at 21 when he started his apprenticeship.

Mar 6th, 2023 - 9:37 AM

Dave T

Mar 6, 2023 - 10:24AM

Re: Francis Hawke

A Francis Hawke, son of Francis, filesmith was apprenticed to his father and became Freeman in 1786
That would imply that the marriage in 1786 to Keturah Hoole was Francis the son and the 1760 one, to Ann RAGG, was Francis the father.
Dave

Mar 6th, 2023 - 10:24 AM

Moira

Mar 6, 2023 - 2:10PM

Re: Francis Hawke

Hi James,

Not sure if I am on the right track but here goes....

James Vickers, filesmith married Lidia/Lydia Crooks, 7 Nov 1758 at Sheffield P.C.
Hannah Vickers d/o James, filesmith, bap 5 Nov 1759 Sheffield P.C.
James Vickers s/o James, filesmith, bap 24 Feb 1762 "
Mary Vickers d/o James, - bap 21 Aug 1765 "
Lidia Vickers d/o James, filesmith, bap 22 Feb 1771

Lydia Vickers wife of James, metalsmith, buried 8 March 1802 Sheffield P.C.

Archbishop of Yorks Marriage Licences.
James Vickers aged 67 (1737) of Sheffield and Sarah Roberts aged 59 of Sheffield.
Licence date 11 September 1804.
Intended Marriage place, Sheffield P.C.

James Vickers otp, Widower and Sarah Roberts otp, Widow, by Licence 13th September 1804.
Witnesses: James Benton/Barton?, Mary Youle and Elizabeth Butcher.

James Vickers, white metal smith, buried 12 April 1809, Sheffield P.C.
Probate: James Vickers, May 1809, Sheffield, Administration and Will.

Moira.

James Taylor

Mar 6, 2023 - 2:51PM

Re: Francis Hawke

Dave T

Thank you - it was my assumption too that the Francis who married Keturah Hoole was Francis' (died 1805) son.

Mar 6th, 2023 - 2:51 PM

James Taylor

Mar 6, 2023 - 3:05PM

Re: Francis Hawke

Moira

Thanks Moira,

I have James Vickers' children from his will as John, Elizabeth (wife of Elijah West), Hannah (wife of John Stacye) and Mary (wife of George Butcher).

It's worth pointing out that James Vickers was the person who popularised Britannia Metal, and as such there's much written about him. He was also an early Methodist and is mentioned numerous times in texts on the history of Sheffield Methodism.

I've previously seen the record for Lidia Crookes and wasn't certain its the same :James Vickers". Its also written that Vickers was some relation to Thomas Holy (buttonmaker). One text mentions that he married the daughter of Thomas Holy's mother's half-sister, Mrs Ludlam, others say he was Thomas Holy's son-in-law. Similarly, its noted that he and his wife joined the Methodists around 1763 and his wife died in 1802. Could Lidia have previously been married?

Mar 6th, 2023 - 3:05 PM

John S

Mar 6, 2023 - 4:44PM

Re: Francis Hawke

When James married Lidia in 1758 Lidia was a spinster.

Is a filesmith and metalsmith the same occupation?

I am wondering could the lidia whose burial was in 1802 in fact be a different lidia and she in
fact was the wife of James who was baptised in 1762?

just a thought thats all

Dave T

Mar 6, 2023 - 5:49PM

Re: Francis Hawke

James Taylor

The James Vickers who started his apprenticeship in 1758 was very unusual. His apprenticeship was to be for only 11 Months. That probably means he was 20/21 when he started it. So he could have reached 21 by November 1758 when he presumably qualified, and at the same time would qualify to marry (which he did in Nov 1758).
Please note he PURCHASED his freedom 1763. No one was GRANTED their freedom. They purchased it when they chose to do so (provided they had already qualified by completing their apprenticeship).
Just one of many examples: my ggg grandfather qualified by completing his apprenticeship in 1820 but he chose not to purchase his freedom (ie purchase a trade mark) until 1842.
dave

Mar 6th, 2023 - 5:49 PM

James Taylor

Mar 6, 2023 - 6:00PM

Re: Francis Hawke

Dave T

James Taylor

Thanks Dave - makes sense!

Mar 6th, 2023 - 6:00 PM

James Taylor

Mar 6, 2023 - 6:12PM

Re: Francis Hawke

John S

The James Vickers i'm interested in was listed as a white metal manufacturer on his will in 1809. It's mentioned on the Your Name on a Knife site that he was apprenticed to Christopher Greaves, filemaker, but then starting manufacturing what he called "Vickers White Metal" around the late 1780s (after purchasing the recipe in 1769) - later branded as "Britannia Metal".

I'm unsure of the distinction but a metalsmith could conceivably be a manufacturer of tableware and kitchenware while a filemsith would be someone who cut files.

I've seen quite a few other trees where "my" James Vickers is married to Lidia Crookes, but I've never quite been convinced all the pieces fit.

Mar 6th, 2023 - 6:12 PM

Dave T

Mar 6, 2023 - 10:37PM

Re: Francis Hawke

A metalsmith was simply a person who made things from metal. A Blacksmith made things from Iron and Steel. A tinsmith made things from tin. Ditto for goldsmith and silversmith When a new metal alloy came along they coined a new word to describe him.
So a worker in an alloy, whatever the mix, would be generally described as a metalsmith. Clearly James stopped being a filesmith and changed his occupation.

It seems to me that all the pieces fit together
Dave

Mar 6th, 2023 - 10:37 PM

Dave T

Mar 7, 2023 - 10:55AM

Re: Francis Hawke

James, following up on the potential link to Thomas Holy, have you seen the 1758 will of Thomas?
Perhaps more importantly, have you seen the 1757 or 1762 will of his father Daniel?
Dave

Mar 7th, 2023 - 10:55 AM

James Taylor

Mar 7, 2023 - 12:10PM

Re: Francis Hawke

Dave T

James, following up on the potential link to Thomas Holy, have you seen the 1758 will of Thomas?
Perhaps more importantly, have you seen the 1757 or 1762 will of his father Daniel?
Dave

Funnily enough I’m at the archives right now looking at them!

Mar 7th, 2023 - 12:10 PM