I'm praying someone can help solve my mystery and save any more hair pulling 🤣🤣

It's quite a long post so please bare with me...

My X5 GG William Bram(hall) born circa 1831-1835 (area unknown).

It seems William was a very indecisive person when it came to records like his age... he also changed occupations regularly according to censuses which caused me a few problems to begin with.

My problem now is I can confirm all of Williams timeline from his marriage to his death however his life before marriage is non-existent and where I am stuck and wondered if you lovely lot could help 😀

I came across an article online about a George living in Bradfield but not much was known about him, she also confirmed there were 3 or 4 bram(h)all family's living in the same village that were not related so again a brick wall.

Ancestry trees are sloppy are others are listing parents as a Joseph and Sarah bramall buy fairly confident these 2 are nor the parents I'm looking for and are of one of the other local bramalls. Also have marriage certificate stating father is George (see below)

Alot of people are accepting the hint without been able to provide proof or source other than copying and pasting others tree info, frustrating argghh!

Below is all the information I have so far:

1856: (got certificate)
William Bram(hall) married an Eliza Sharman on 18th September 1856, in Sheffield. He was 22 years old, a bachelor and his occupation was a collier. He was living at South Street and his farther was listed as a George Bramhall who was also a collier.

1861:
William was a Coal Miner living at Beighton, Sheffield with wife Eliza and now 3 children: Fred, Harrick Henry & Lavinia Ann. He claimed he was 26 years old born in 1835

1871:
William was living at Beighton, Sheffield with wife Eliza and 6 children: Fred, Harrick Henry, Lavinia Ann, Arthur W, Harriet E & Kate. He is now claiming he is 40 years old born in 1831. No occupation listed.

1881:
William is now a green grocer living at kirk alley, Beighton, Derbyshire with wife Eliza and 6 of his children: Arthur William, Harriet Emma, Kate, George Sharman, Herbert and Mary Sarah. (Fred, Harrick and Lavinia all now left home)

1891:
William now a general labourer age 55 giving his birth year as 1833. Now living at Utah Terrace, Beighton, Derbyshire with wife Eliza and 3 of their children: George S, Herbert and Mary S. (All other children now left home)

1901:
Williams occupation changes again to a Carrier. He is 69 years old and birth year changed again to now 1832. He is loving with wife Eliza and their son Herbert a carter's labourer.

William I believe died in 1905. The index lists a birth year as 1832, death year 1905 age 73 in Eckington, Derbyshire.

TIA

William was 25 when he married in 1856.

Is this him in Beighton in the 1851 census?

Sarah Bramhall - Head - widow, 65 born Hackenthorpe
William Bramhall, son, 17, coal miner, born Hackenthorpe

Heths

Thank you, i have his age according to his marriage certificate, im trying to find his parents and siblings, all i know is his father is George Bramall.

Hi Heather, no this isnt them, there were quite a few bramalls in the same area one family having mother sarah and father joseph.

William's marriage certificate states he was 25 years old a collier living at south street, and his father was George.

I cannot find anything on his father george at all, the family were from beighton hackenthorpe which over the century has been classed as Rotherham, Chesterfield, Derbyshire and more recently Sheffield.

Any advice or thoughts much appreciated, or any other info.

I use Ancestry, my heritage, find my past, family search and the local indexers and cannot find this family previous to William marrying. I can provide a copy of the marriage certificate if that helps

Which site did you use to find William on 1861 census. I am trying to find the family but not having much luck. Probably a senior moment

Other then the marriage certificate what proof have you that his father was called George?

You are 100% that you are tracing the correct family ie how are you connected?

Hi John

FMP have them transcribed as Brunall in the 1861 census.


Heths

Hi John

Other than his marriage certificate I have no other confirmation of father been George. I can't find anything at all for a George, ie birth, marriage, death, military anything at all, I've checked parish records etc.

Ill break down how im a direct descendant:

William and Eliza married on the 18th of September 1856 in Sheffield Cathedral of St Peter & St Paul (Have certificate)

William and Eliza had 11 children in total:

1. Fred b.1856
2. Harrick Henry b. 1858
3. Lavinia Ann b. 1860
4. Arthur William b. 1862
5. Walter b. 1865
6. Harriet Emma b. 1866
7. Kate b. 1868
8. Rhoda b. 1870
9. George b. 1872
10. Herbert b. 1874
11. Marah Sarah b. 1875

Harrick Henry Bramall their 2nd child married a Hannah Winfield on the 5th of September 1881 in Sheffield Cathedral of St Peter & St Paul (have certificate)

Harrick and Hannah had 6 children:

1. Fred b. 1882
2. Lucy b. 1883
3. Lily b. 1885
4. Ellen b. 1891
5. Sarah b. 1893
6. William b. 1896

Lily Bramall married Harry Jubb 25th December 1910 at St Silas Church, Broomhall, Sheffield (have certificate)

Lily and Harry had 4 children:
1. Herbert b. 1911
2. Harry b. 1913
3. Frederick b. 1915
4. Lily b. 1917

Lily Jubb married Fred Fearnehough (a widower previously married to Edith Surr) on 13th September 1944 in the Sheffield Register Office.

Lily and Fred had 1 daughter born in September 1945 in Sheffield who is my maternal grandmother.

I have included all the censuses for William and Eliza in the post from marriage and have complete trees for all descendants.

There has been a battle with this family from the beginning whether it be name variations in spellings or variations of birth dates etc, the only consistency is the area they originate which is Beighton Hackenthorpe. This however has brought its own problems as over the last century Hackenthorpe has been classed as:

Chesterfield / Derbyshire / Rotherham and more recently Sheffield.

I use ancestry & find my past.

Hope this helps. I am happy to provide links to my tree or any sources if that helps.

Appreciate your time and hope it all makes sense my heads spinning :)

Hi Carley,
In 1841 there is a William Bramhall age 8 living with his widowed mother Sarah aged 50, brother, Reuben (15) and sister, Emma (10) the census area is Beighton, Dbys/Hackenthorp/Rotherham.(take your pick..??)

There is a marriage on this site and on Family Search for:
SARAH RABY married 11th April, 1819 at Sheffield Parish Church(later Cathedral) to
GEORGE BRAMHALL. no father's names given.
see details over to your left under parish records/marriages.

The above could possibly be your rellies..??

HAPPY HUNTING :sleuth_or_spy:

Hi Wendy

There’s a baptism in Beighton and a marriage in Sheffield for Reuben, unfortunately they both give his fathers name as Joseph

Heths

Thanks for the info, have you any idea where the name Harrick came from please as that could be the key.

Two things spring to my mind but as I have just got home from work will try and look tomorrow but here are what my thinking are:-

1. George is not his father ie William was illegit but his mother married George after he was born and assumed he was his father.

2. William was illegit and the named George as his father to prove he was legit.

Morning John, bless you thank you so much for your time on this...

I have no idea where the name Harrick came from, to be frank he was the first nightmare i had, he was very difficult to trace and source for a long time due to a lot of transcription errors in things like spellings but do now have all those. I will dig out his birth and marriage details for you too, see if you can spot something i can't.

I have wondered about the possibility of been illegitimate but have no idea where to start on that, it isnt something ive encountered as of yet with any of my ancestors. I think in all honesty im just getting a mind block with this family completely.

Im currently trying to disprove Sarah and Joseph as his parents as it keeps suggesting them to be, i did find last night a baptism for him and all the siblings of that particular family:

First name(s) William
Last name Bramhall
Gender Male
Birth year -
Birth place -
Baptism year 1831
Baptism date 09 Oct 1831
Residence Beighton, Derbyshire, England
Place Beighton
County Derbyshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Joseph
Father's last name Bramhall
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain

This indicates the correct age and area, just to find a link to sarah and joseph. What i cant understand is why if he was baptised with the correct parents the name would be different on his marriage certificate.

If this is the William im looking for i can see him with sarah in the 1841 census and 1851 census so did stay with this family, again this is whats throwing me with the name George as father on his marriage certificate.

Thanks again

Morning Wendy,

Thank you i will look into this information :)

Here is a long shot for you. Can you find a death for Joseph and was it before the birth of George. Then he would be illegit, and may grow up knowing it, despite what his mother said at his baptism.
Dave

Hi Dave,

Any advice or long shots welcome, i am currently trying to research the joseph and sarah family to either find the link between them and the william im looking for or to confirm this isnt the family im looking for...

I havent yet found the death for Joseph but from what i can piece together so far it looks like he died in 1839.

Im confused where you ask if the death of Joseph was before George? Im not sure which George your referring to here? sorry if i sound daft!

Do you mean was the death of Joseph before william? if so william was born in 1831 and joseph dies in 1839.

George is who im trying to find and connect to william if that makes sense?

Sorry, yes I meant before the death of William
Dave

Hi Wendy,

on looking for the marriage you have seen for a george bramall in 1819 to a sarah raby i have now found 3 marriages so even more confusion...

1.

First name(s) George
Last name Bramhall
Residence Sheffield
Marriage year 1819
Marriage date 11 Apr 1819
Marriage place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
Spouse's first name(s) Sarah
Spouse's last name Raby
Spouse's residence Sheffield
Father's first name(s) -
Spouse's father's first name(s) -
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies
Archive reference PR-138-3-17
Event type Marriages
Event year range 1818-1821
Page 63
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

2.
First name(s) George
Last name Bramhall
Residence Sheffield
Marriage year 1820
Marriage date 16 Aug 1820
Marriage place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
Spouse's first name(s) Ann
Spouse's last name Reaney
Spouse's residence Sheffield
Father's first name(s) -
Spouse's father's first name(s) -
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies
Archive reference PR-138-3-17
Event type Marriages
Event year range 1818-1821
Page 332
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

3.
First name(s) George
Last name Bramhall
Residence Sheffield
Marriage year 1821
Marriage date 02 Jul 1821
Marriage place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
Spouse's first name(s) Hannah
Spouse's last name Fearn
Spouse's residence Sheffield
Father's first name(s) -
Spouse's father's first name(s) -
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies
Archive reference PR-138-3-17
Event type Marriages
Event year range 1818-1821
Page 519
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

now more confused than ever, going to keep plugging away but think if i may need a break from this family for a while and come back with a fresh head, i like a puzzle but this is stressful

Another Scenario (other indexers what do you think)

What if and a big if I think if the baptism you found for william with father Josep and mother Sarah is correct.

Then lets say Joseph died circa 1832 and Sarah then married George and George was a relative ie Joseph's brother so the Bramall name continued or

was George the middle name of Joseph and was not registered as such

or

was Joseph upto no good and changed his name to avoid being tracked down

been a long day at work so could be all rubbish