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1841 census - help needed please

Hi,
I have been researching a particularly difficult ancestor named Eliza Guest. She appears on 1861 census onwards in Sheffield, married to a William Bradshaw. The census shows born abt 1838 and says London until the late census, then it changes to Sheffield.

I have researched many of the Eliza's found on various 1841 census, but these have proved not the correct ones (either died or married others).

However, I found an Eliza West on one 1841 census, details below:
Piece: 336
Book: 14
Folio: 3
Page Number: 1

The original transcription has her as Eliza Mott with what appears to be her parents, both Mott. But the transcription has been bracketed with 'West'. Does anyone know how or why this would be?

regards
Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Sarah,

I used our 1841 census index for this family but its not the same references that you have given.

Mott, Eliza of Maltraver Street, Sheffield Park. Aged 25 years.
(Piece #1336/6, folio 11a, enumeration district 12.)

Mott, Jane of Maltraver Street, Sheffield Park. Aged 8 years.
(Piece #1336/6, folio 11a, enumeration district 12.)


Mott, Thomas of Maltraver Street, Sheffield Park. Aged 3 years.
(Piece #1336/6, folio 11a, enumeration district 12.)


Mott, William of Maltraver Street, Sheffield Park. Aged 30 years.
(Piece #1336/6, folio 11a, enumeration district 12.)

Is that the family.??

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype/Messenger

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Elaine,

No, the 1841 census has her in london

Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Is this the one?

Stafford Place, South, St Margaret, Westminster, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (5 people)

Eliza Mott Female 40 1801 -
John Mott Male 12 1829 Middlesex, England
William Locock Male 30 1811 -
Ann Locock Female 25 1816 Middlesex, England
Emma Locock Female 1 1840 Middlesex, England

Gosh the age is hard to read. At first glance I thought it was 66.

He certainly wrote weird 4's.

The word you thought was West I believe is wife. crossed through.
She wasn't born in the county by the way.

Hope this helps.

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype/Messenger

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Elaine,

This is the one.....

1841 England Census
1840s
View
Seen today
Record information.
Name
Eliza Mott
[Eliza West]
Birth
abt 1838 Essex, England
Residence
North Weald Bassett, North Weald Bassett, Essex, England



NAME: Eliza Mott
AGE: 3
ESTIMATED BIRTH YEAR: 1838
GENDER: Female
WHERE BORN: Essex, England
CIVIL PARISH: North Weald Bassett
HUNDRED: Ongar
COUNTY/ISLAND: Essex
COUNTRY: England
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Epping
SUB-REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Epping
NEIGHBORS: View others on page
PIECE: 336
BOOK: 14
FOLIO: 3
PAGE NUMBER: 1
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
Name Age
James Mott 30
Lyde Mott 20
Eliza Mott 3

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Sarah

The whole family is bracketed West.

If you look at James Mott, the bracketed 'James West' is clickable. Clicking the link opens a box which tells you that West is an alternative name provided by an Ancestry member, who thinks they are correcting the original transcription of Mott.

Looking at the image it is hard to read as MOTT so could be interpreted by some people as something else. I wouldn't have said West, but can sort of see that's what they're saying (ish!)!

Denise

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Just backing up Denise and giving my interpretation of the 1841 census.

Using FMP.

On the actual page it looks like "Mot." It's not West for sure. If its from another researcher ignore it.

By the way the county is Essex not London which is Middx. James is a brickmaker.
Looks like an agricultural area from Google Earth. Currently has flight training
runways.

Hope we have put the "West" idea to rest.

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype/Messenger

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Is this where the surname 'West' has come from?

1851 census, Brick Kilns, Stanford Rivers, Ongar, Essex.
James West, head, mar, 44, Brickmaker, born Stanford Rivers, Essex.
Lydia West, wife, 30, born North Weald, Bassett, Essex.
Eliza West, dau, 6??, born North Weald, Bassett, Essex.
William West, son, 3mo, born Stanford Rivers, Essex.
The age for Eliza has a 4 for her age, then a 6 has been entered, I can't find a
baptism for Eliza.

James West, Widow, Brick maker, father William West, Brick maker.
Lydia Walesby, Sp. father Jonathan.
Married 17 Feb 1838 at Stanford Rivers,Essex. (Transcript only).

Is Lydia the mother of Eliza??

Moira.

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Good find Moira,

If anyone can find them it would be you.

So West did come into play with the Mott Family.

Take care.

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype/Messenger

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Thank you for explaining that.

So I guess another dead end..I will continue searching.

Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Not sure if it makes any difference but have not found birth yet for eliza. However I think I have found the one for William and it states mother's maiden name as WELSBY

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Sarah
Do you have the Bradshaw Guest marriage cert from 1860?
What name and occupation did she give for her father?
Dave

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

From FMP not the image but she married using the name ELIZABETH to William Bradshaw therefore are we on the correct track?

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Sarah Ann

My ancestor Walter BRADSHAW (born 1857) I believe was the younger brother of William BRADSHAW (born 1839) who married Elizabeth GUEST.

Could I ask what the census reference and address is that you have for William BRADSHAW in the 1881 Census please.

I have checked the birth registrations for the surname BRADSHAW with the mothers maiden surname of GUEST for the Sheffield Registration district and they seem to match the children of the family recorded at the address of 70 Oak Street Heeley in the 1891 Census (RG12/3813/16 Page 25), and for the family in the 1871 Census at Back 11 Stafford Street (RG10/4688/144 Page 35).:

Births Mar 1860
BRADSHAW Matilda, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 279
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, MATILDA (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 279
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Mar 1862
BRADSHAW Mary Ann, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 333
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, MARY ANN (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 333
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Sep 1864
BRADSHAW William, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 369
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, WILLIAM (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 369
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Mar 1867
BRADSHAW Thomas Frederick, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 373
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, THOMAS FREDERICK (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 373
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Mar 1869
BRADSHAW Sarah Ann, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 396
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, SARAH ANN (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 396
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Jun 1871
BRADSHAW Joseph Albert, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 422
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, JOSEPH ALBERT (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 422
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Sep 1873
BRADSHAW Ellen, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 422
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, ELLEN (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 422
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Dec 1875
BRADSHAW Florence, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 458
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, FLORENCE (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 458
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Mar 1878
BRADSHAW Walter, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 475
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, WALTER (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 475
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Jun 1880
BRADSHAW Arthur, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 490
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, ARTHUR (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 490
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Sep 1882
BRADSHAW Elizabeth, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 458
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, ELIZABETH (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 458
source: gro.gov.uk



Births Mar 1885
BRADSHAW George Henry, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 491
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

BRADSHAW, GEORGE HENRY (Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST)
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C page 491
source: gro.gov.uk


William BRADSHAW (born 1864) dies 1867 so does not appear in a census.
Likewise his brother George Henry BRADSHAW (born 1885 and dies 1885).

Kind regards

Leipzig

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

They are at 1 ct1 Charles St in 1881.
However for some reason Elizabeth was recorded as Mary. born London
Ancestry has the same family (including Mary instead of Elizabeth) as Beadshaw
Dave

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Dave T

I had come to the same conclusion, that this was the correct family in the 1881 census and that 'Mary' had been recorded as the name of the wife for some reason instead of Elizabeth, thank you.

Kind regards

Leipzig

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi again Dave T

The puzzle I have is the following burials in the same grave:

Bradshaw, Eliza (Widow, age 72).
Died at 75 St Marys Rd; Buried on January 11, 1909 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11440, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: .
Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No 2011

Bradshaw, Elizabeth (Married, age 53).
Died at 227 Rockingham St; Buried on May 17, 1890 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11440, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: . Remarks: .
Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No 524

BRADSHAW, William (Joiner's Tool M'kr, age 60).
Died at Oak St Heeley; Buried on March 5, 1899 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11440, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: .
Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No 1282

GLOSSOP, Rose (Daug of Edward, age 22mo).
Died at 164 Charles St; Buried on May 4, 1925 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11440, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: .
Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No 2

HANDLEY, Matilda (Wife of Sam, age 80).
Died at 640 Arbourthorne Rd; Buried on July 13, 1940 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11440, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: .
Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No 214

HANDLEY, Samuel (Retired, age 88).
Died at 640 Arbourthorne Rd; Buried on July 28, 1945 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 11440, Section W of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: ~.
Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No 163
source: The Sheffield Indexers, Burial transcripts.

The Elizabeth and the Eliza burial.
I cannot work out who Elizabeth BRADSHAW is (buried 1890) if Eliza is the original Elizabeth from London. I have worked with the theory that William BRADSHAW possibly married again to an Eliza between 1890 and 1891 but have come up with a blank.

Thanks for your help

Leipzig

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi, Wondered if this would help? Name William Bradshaw
Age 52
Residence Place 70 Oak Street
Birth Date 1838
Marital Status Widowed
Occupation Joiners Tool Maker
Father's Name William Bradshaw
Father's Sex Male
Father's Occupation Joiners Tool Maker
Spouse's Name Eliza Fowler
Spouse's Age 54
Spouse's Residence Place 70 Oak Street
Spouse's Birth Date 1836
Spouse's Marital Status Widowed
Spouse's Father's Name George Milner
Spouse's Father's Sex Male
Spouse's Father's Occupation Table Knife Hayter
Witness Name George Kirk
Witness 2 Name Mary Kirk
Marriage Date 6 Oct 1890
Marriage Place Heeley, Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom
Marriage Place (Original) Heeley, Yorkshire (West Riding), England

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Barry E White

Thank you, the information is a big help.

I do not want to be rude and hijack this thread, But with regards to the death details of both Elizabeth and Eliza along with your information plus:

227 Rockingham Street, Sheffield, BRADSHAW William, joiner's tool maker. source: White's Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham 1891.[?b]

Marriages Mar 1859
FLINN Sarah Ann, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 266
FOWLER John, Sheffield, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 266
MILNER Eliza, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 266[b/]
PRICE George, Sheffield, Vol. 9c, Page 266
source: FreeBMD.org.uk

There is a good chance that Elizabeth GUEST dies in 1890 and is replaced in the household in 1890 by Eliza FOWLER (nee MILNER) as William BRADSHAW's wife. This would explain why later censuses show that the place of birth for William's wife changed from London to Sheffield[b/] which if correct, would solve a query that Sarah Ann raised in her opening post.

Kind regards

Leipzig

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

John FOWLER born 1835 is Living with his wife Eliza born 1836 at 14 Court 4 house Hoyle Street, Sheffield in the 1881 Census (RG11/4645/100 Page 10).

Burials St Philip Church, Sheffield
Surname: FOWLER
Forename: John
Burial Date: 16/09/1885
Abode: Hoyle St
Age: 51
source: The Sheffield & District Family History Society, St Philip Church, Burial transcripts.

Regards

Leipzig

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Sarah Ann et al,
This is certainly a frustrating case.
I started out with an ELIZA GUEST born about 1834 (did not find baptism record) in Middlesex.
In 1841, ELIZA GUEST (age 7.?) is in some sort of institution at St.Herman Hill, St.Margaret, Westminster Middlesex. With her are presumably a brother JOHN GUEST (age 15.?) and a mother, HANNAH GUEST (age 40.?) plus a whole host of other folks.

In 1851, HANNAH GUESS..?? is age 48, an inmate/Gen.Servant at St.James Workhouse, Westminster. There is a death for HANNAH GUEST in 1861 at St.Margaret's Westminster, age 62..??

There is an ELIZA GUEST in 1851, age 15 (born Middlesex), servant at the home of Henry Bonson & family residence is at Bell Alley,Little, St.Stephen, Westminster, Middsx.
JOHN GUESS..?? I believe married in 1846 London, to Louise Ann Harlow and in 1851 he was 25 (born Westminster) Occ: Music Printer. res: Frances St, St.Margaret's, Westminster.
According to someone's TREE, John goes to AUSTRALIA and eventually marries again...???

The Bradshaw years have already been fully covered in this thread. The two deaths(with same birth years) for Eliza (1909) and Elizabeth Bradshaw(1890) are confusing and the suggested possibility of William having remarried is open...?? . In 1901, ELIZA BRADSHAW is 63 still living at Oak Street with 2 sons,1 daughter and 1 niece.
On each census until 1891 & 1901 Eliza maintains she is born in London or just Middlesex.
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

sounding like the one - I will keep reading this thread.
Thanks John

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

John S
From FMP not the image but she married using the name ELIZABETH to William Bradshaw therefore are we on the correct track?
Thanks John,
I will continue reading the thread for more help :grinning:

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Dave T
Sarah
Do you have the Bradshaw Guest marriage cert from 1860?
What name and occupation did she give for her father?
Dave
Hi Dave,
No just what was on the BMD

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Leipzig
Hi Dave T

I had come to the same conclusion, that this was the correct family in the 1881 census and that 'Mary' had been recorded as the name of the wife for some reason instead of Elizabeth, thank you.

Kind regards

Leipzig
Hi Liepzig,
I agree very frustrating. I know the burial plot is correct as I am in the Bradshaw/Handley side of family.

I didn't spot the Eliza/Elizabeth Bradshaw. I think I need to investigate the possible death of my eliza Guest as earlier.. and that he could have remarried.

Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Moira
Is this where the surname 'West' has come from?

1851 census, Brick Kilns, Stanford Rivers, Ongar, Essex.
James West, head, mar, 44, Brickmaker, born Stanford Rivers, Essex.
Lydia West, wife, 30, born North Weald, Bassett, Essex.
Eliza West, dau, 6??, born North Weald, Bassett, Essex.
William West, son, 3mo, born Stanford Rivers, Essex.
The age for Eliza has a 4 for her age, then a 6 has been entered, I can't find a
baptism for Eliza.

James West, Widow, Brick maker, father William West, Brick maker.
Lydia Walesby, Sp. father Jonathan.
Married 17 Feb 1838 at Stanford Rivers,Essex. (Transcript only).

Is Lydia the mother of Eliza??

Moira.
Hi Moira,
I hope so!!
I will investigate

Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Sarah
If you wish to find Elizabeth Guest's origin then you need to purchase the 1860 certificate of marriage to William Bradshaw. What she said, or perhaps did not say, about her father should be a big clue. At the moment you have nothing to go on

Dave

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Sarah Ann, Leipzig et al,
I have just found a record of the 2nd marriage of William Bradshaw on Family Search website which backs up Leipzig's suggestion.
William Bradshaw age 52 of 70 Oak Street, (Widowed)
Occ: Joiner's Toolmaker. Father Wm. Bradshaw (same occ:)
married: 6th October 1890 Christchurch, Heeley.
Eliza Fowler (widowed) age 54, Res: 70 Oak Street,
Father: George Milner(Table Knife Hafter).
Witnesses George & Mary Kirk.

There is also a possible baptism/birth on this site for Eliza Milner B:3 Aug/1836 see to your left under parish records/baptisms.

So I think this has solved the two deaths for Eliza and Elizabeth Bradshaw. Elizabeth (Guest) was the first wife from London and Eliza(Milner/Fowler) the 2nd wife from Sheffield
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Moira
Is this where the surname 'West' has come from?

1851 census, Brick Kilns, Stanford Rivers, Ongar, Essex.
James West, head, mar, 44, Brickmaker, born Stanford Rivers, Essex.
Lydia West, wife, 30, born North Weald, Bassett, Essex.
Eliza West, dau, 6??, born North Weald, Bassett, Essex.
William West, son, 3mo, born Stanford Rivers, Essex.
The age for Eliza has a 4 for her age, then a 6 has been entered, I can't find a
baptism for Eliza.

James West, Widow, Brick maker, father William West, Brick maker.
Lydia Walesby, Sp. father Jonathan.
Married 17 Feb 1838 at Stanford Rivers,Essex. (Transcript only).

Is Lydia the mother of Eliza??

Moira.
Hi Moira,
I found a baptism record for Eliza in Feb 1838, mother name only on record of Lydia Walesby.

Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for letting me know, at least that is another problem solved.

Moira.

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Dave T
Sarah
Do you have the Bradshaw Guest marriage cert from 1860?
What name and occupation did she give for her father?
Dave
Hi Dave,
I don't have the certificate just the record on FMP and that looks like a civil marriage. If I applied for the certificate would the parent information be on?

Sarah

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Yes, all marriages after 1837 give father information regardless of whether they took place in the registry office or in a church. It was, and still is,a legal requirement for the bride and groom to name a father
If she was legitimate you will get the name of her father and his occupation.
If she was illegitimate and admitted it the space will be empty.
If she was illegitimate but did not want to admit it she would invent a father name.
Dave

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

You should order from GRO,cost £11. It comes by snail mail, paper copy. You should get it within a couple of weeks. When you place the order it will give an eta.
Dave

Re: 1841 census - help needed please

Dave T
You should order from GRO,cost £11. It comes by snail mail, paper copy. You should get it within a couple of weeks. When you place the order it will give an eta.
Dave
Thanks Dave,
Ordered and fingers crossed
Sarah