Hi everyone
A lot of my family at some time or another lived on Ardmore Street in Atterclicliffe.How do I find out if they owned the houses or if they were rented from someone. Just seems weird that the houses stayed in the family so to speak.
Thanks

Hello Karen,

Possibly from newspaper adverts when the houses were sold?

For example in 1925 numbers 30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44 were up for sale and at that time had been producing a total annual rent of £119 12s, tenants paid their own rates except for water (£6 12s)

What numbers are you interested in?

Hi Karen, You don't say what period you are asking about but apart from the wealthy (who bought houses in the "better" parts of Sheffield ) , it was unusual for ordinary people to buy a house until into the 20th century. Even then many houses continued to be rented. Both my grandparents lived in rented houses until they died in the 1990's. I would guess most if not all houses in Attercliffe were rented.
I don't think there is any website you can go to find if a property was rented though.
Best of luck, John

Adverts as follows:

July 1884 Nos 5 to 25 (11 houses odd numbers) occupied by Gill, Bailey, Woodcock and others

June 1906 No 23 rent 5 shillings

June 1914 No 42 rent 5 shillings - apply to 13 Marshall Road Woodseats


also found in death notices Independent 30th May 1903:
BROUGH - On May 27, at 23 Ardmore Street, Attercliffe, William Henry Brough, beloved husband of Mary Brough, aged 33 yewars. Interment at Darnall Cemetery to-morrow, 3 p.m.

In December 1915 Leonard Gledhill Staniforth of 42 Ardmore street was fined 5s for joing a strike of munitions workers. In April 1925 still at No 42 he was sent to prison for a month for not supporting his wife and four children - he had refused a job paying £2 13s a week.

Hi Ted
Thank you for the info
Some of it could make sense but I'm unsure as yet. The names I am particularly interested in in connection with the houses mentioned are Webster, Dewey, Walker and Jeffcock. I'm wondering if the gentle at number 42 could be one of ours too.
Thanks again so much for your help.

Hello Ted
I'm still working on some of the information you gave me previously so thanks for that. Can I ask is it the type of information that you can find online? I have interest in another property 25 Court 2 Princess Street. I've found from certificates etc that my grandfather lived there from appx 1896 until at least 1906 left and then, after his death in 1928, his wife came back to live there. I'd like to research the property if possible?
Regards
Karen

Karen, for what it is worth that address occurs only 3 times in all our records over to the left.
Stenton, Lily (Child, age 21mo).
Died at 25ct 2 Princess St; Buried on October 22, 1907 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 18669, Section CC1 of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Usher, Arthur (of 25ct 2 Princess St, born ~).
Baptised October 4, 1882, by T Couch at Emmanuel Church, Attercliffe.
Parents name(s) are Emma & Arthur (Forge Man).
Usher, Florie (of 25ct 2 Princess St, born ~).
Baptised October 15, 1885, by T Couch at Emmanuel Church, Attercliffe.
Parents name(s) are Emma & Arthur (Forge Man).
Dave

Thanks for that Dave.

Looks like Lily Stentons family were the next to move into the property after Tom's. Just strange that Tom's second wife and two of his children moved back there after his death. I have the 1921 census entry and his 2 daughters marriage certificates at this address spanning from 1921 to 1930.
This gets more confusing.
Karen

Hi Karen,

I don't find it odd at all that a house that was rented stayed in the family for many years.

My maternal grandparents lived at a house in Crookes for 30 years+ then it was sold outside the family. After a number of years my brother rented it,later his son followed by another son who currently resides there. One hundred years years of rental in the same house.

Elaine.

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Thanks for that Elaine. I've not heard of it before but can understand how it could happen.

Karen
With regard to your statement
"25 Court 2 Princess Street. I've found from certificates etc that my grandfather lived there from appx 1896 until at least 1906 left and then, after his death in 1928, his wife came back to live there."

I have checked the facts for this family (thanks Denise)
Between 1899 and 1907 the family lived at 19 NEWCASTLE Street as proven by the addresses of 3 of their children at baptism, the 1901 Census and the death of first wife Elizabeth in 1907.

In 1911 ,Tom was newly married to his second wife and they lived at 14 Wheeldon Street.
In 1921 Tom was in the Asylum and his wife and children were at 25ct 2 Princess St, 7 years BEFORE Tom died in the asylum in 1928.

Dave

Correction
I have just checked the 1921 Census which you said had Eliza Ann and children at 25 ct 2 Princess St. In fact they were still at 14 Wheeldon Street in 1921. Eliza is actually transcribed as Elizabeth A born 1882.
Am I right in thinking the address of 25 ct 2 Princess St comes from the marriage certs of the two daughters, which are both dated 1933 (Free BMD).
Dave

Hi
Thanks so much for your help.
I have Tom Hinchliffes death certificate and this is where it's strange
He died 21 December 1928 in the asylum but where it states occupation it says of 14 Wheeldon Street, a general labourer. However under informant it says E Hinchliffe, widow of deceased 25 court 2 Princess Street.
I also have two of the three girls wedding certificates and it was my error. My gran married 20 May 1933 and Gwen married 25 November 1933.
Therefore I'm assuming Eliza was there in 1928 and certainly 1933. At some point after 1933 she moved to Myrtle Road.

Karen

I think I am going mad!
Please can I ask for someone who uses FMP to look for this family searching with the details for my great aunt Gwendoline born 1901 in Sheffield on the 1911 census.
I have just searched (usually I use Ancestry) and it brought her address up as 66a Hollis Croft.Everyone's details are correct except her father Tom's. It lists him in the transcription as being born 1890 and being 21 years old?
When Tom and his second wife married in 1910 they both have given their address as 66 Hollis Croft. Looking at the entries before and after on the film the addresses written are for Hollis Croft but the address on their entry says 14 Wheeldon Street?
Does anyone get the same as me?
I'm wondering if Eliza lived at 66 Hollis Croft at the point of marriage and the intention was to move to 14 Wheeldon Street?

Thanks
Karen

Hi Karen,
I cannot help you with the FMP query but on Family Search website Tom's marriage to Eliza Ann has Tom living at 66 Hollis Croft and Eliza at 66(a) Hollis Croft.

Also still with Fam. Search, their 1911 census shows Tom age 51 born abt. 1860 living at Hollis Croft.

HAPPY HUNTING :sleuth_or_spy:

Hi Wendy
Thank you so much for your help.
The actual address listed on the 1911 census is 14 Wheeldon Street although when transcribed it's listed as 66 Hollis Croft. If you look at the actual entry the entry appears between no 64 and no 68 Hollis Croft. I don't understand how or why this has happened.
As you say the marriage gives both their addresses as 66 Hollis Croft. I'm wondering if it was Eliza Ann's address before her marriage to Tom? My family love to send me on a wild goose chase!
Thanks
Karen

I'm trying to keep my messages together but another thing of interest I have found whilst trying to resolve this address query is the following and possibly worth mentioning.

Eliza Ann Gascoyne Tom's second wife had a sister called Sarah Gascoyne.
Sarah married a gentleman by the name of Charles Thorpe.
Charles parents were Alfred Thorpe and Eliza Hides

Eliza Hides had a brother called George Hides and a George Hides had a business on Wheeldon Street but I don't know whereabouts.I wonder if there is any connection as to why they lived on Wheeldon Street for a time, ie Tom worked there and after Tom's death the family moved again back to Princess Street? On the 1911 census there is an employer listed for either Tom or Eliza that looks like Outrum but it's hard to see who it's for as the form is so messy. This would put paid to my suggestion above if it's for Tom?

Hi Karen,

Phew you think you are confused take pity on us that don't know your family. LOL. I still have the notes from when I answered your questions previously.

This is what I have from FMP.
1871 Granville Lane
1881 Granville Lane
1891 Atlas Rd Cardiff.
1901 19 Newcastle St,Sheffield.
1911 Hollis Croft is what the census taker entered
but Tom said the address was 14 Wheldon St.

Looking at a current day map most of the streets have gone.

It was quite common for an address to be used if there was a specific church the couple wanted to be married in. Maybe another family member who lived in that parish.

In this case were the couple separated? Tom's mental health may have caused problems.
None of the three addresses are that far apart.

If you have looked at a number of marriages registers many have the same address for the bride and groom. Today we would say so what but back then they did not usually live together.

I wouldn't try to second guess the reasons for the address mix up it could be just a mistake.

Elaine in Ottawa.

Note Using my Allan Godfrey Maps of 1903. Sheffield West 294.07

Wheeldon St ran between Solly St and Broad Lane.
A short street with only a few houses. Look like back to back. Mostly a large works.

*** Check John Moore's message Most folks rented back then and they moved on a regular basis.

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Hi Elaine
My lot are just meant to cause havoc LOL.
One other thought I've had about this address query is at the time of the census could Tom and the girls have been living with Eliza at Hollis Croft but were in the process of moving to Wheeldon Street hence the reason for putting that as their postal address. The census taker would have classed them as at Hollis Croft as that's where they opened the door to him.
Now if I could find out when they took possession of Wheeldon Street. I wish I knew who the landlord was and could look at their rent book ...

Karen et al
In order to understand the apparently confusing 1911 census record it is necessary to understand how the census was taken and in particular the rules.
From 1911Census.org.uk:
"Very precise instructions were given to try and ensure every one was counted once and only once. The rule was that someone should be included if they passed the night of Sunday April 2 1911 in this dwelling and were alive at midnight or arrived at the dwelling the following morning not having been enumerated elsewhere - intended to catch night workers. This did not include new-born children - anyone born after midnight should not have been enumerated".

The forms were distributed BEFORE the census and the enumerator put the address on the form when he issued it to each address
Clearly this family moved house from 66 Hollis Croft (for which they had received the census form beforehand) to 14 Wheeldon street very close to the census date (probably that same week end). They all slept at Wheeldon Street on the night of the census. The enumerator will have queried why this form, issued to 66 Hollis Croft, had the new address on and been told that they had just moved from the now empty 66 Hollis Croft so he put it in the right place in his schedule because that is the address he issued it to. He also presumably checked that 66 Hollis Croft was indeed empty

Karen, will you please tell me the exact date of the marriage of Tom to Eliza.
Dave

Hi Dave,


I have 28th August 1910. Sheffield 9c 908.(Sep qtr)

Toms father David.

On the messy 1911 census it states they had been married 7 mths.

Trying to read who the employer was for Tom a file cutter.

John Suton???

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Hi all

The employer is John Outram.

Denise

Thanks Denise,

1911 census.

2 Sale Hill Sheffield, Ecclesall, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding), England

John D Outram Head
Married Male 58 1853 Steel and file manufacturer Yorks Sheffield
Eric J Outram Son
Single Male 24 1887 File manager Yorks Sheffield
Sarah Caville Servant
Single Female 45 1866 Domestic servant Yorks Sheffield

Elaine in Ottawa.

PS.

Back in 2007 Kevin Bennett sent me a cd "Sheffield Rate Books Street Index" 1756-1891.

It does not give who paid the rates for any specific property and does not cover the time period you are interested in. Wheeldon St is there.

The material was from Sheffield Archives soooooo your next port of call is with them.

Good luck.

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Hello Dave

Tom and his 2nd wife did as said in another message after yours marry on 28 August 1910 at St Luke's on Hollis Croft. He is listed as a Widowed Labourer and she as a Spinster.
Tom's father is listed as David Hinchliffe a Filesmith and Eliza's as Herbert Walter Gascoyne a File Cutter. The witnesses are Walter Hollingsworth who I have not come across before and Sarah Morton who I know to be Tom's sister. Tom is listed as living at 66 Hollis Croft and Eliza at 66a
Thanks again for your help

Thank you for the information for John Outram.
There goes my theory LOL ...that someone could have worked for George Hides.

Being disabled is a problem getting to the archives but I am going to try to get down there as I want to see if I can find out more about the homes where they lived and also to see what information there might be regarding Tom's time in the Asylum

Thanks everyone for your continued help. Where do you get all your information from?

Karen

Hi Karen,

If you look on www.picturesheffield.com and search for Hollis Croft and Wheeldon Street there are lots of pictures of the types of houses and workshops.

I worked very close to Hollis Croft in the 1980/90s when a lot of the buildings were still there. Sadly all pulled down in fairly recent years and massive student accommodation blocks built.

Denise

Karen, I have gathered lots of evidence for the histories of 19 Newcastle St, 66 Hollis Croft, 14 Wheeldon St and 25ct2 Princess St.
Here is the abridged version from a lot of complex and detailed records

!9 Newcastle St; The previous tenants moved out about mid 1895. Mid 1895 to mid 1896 Tom and Elizabeth move in.
All their 5 children born there but one dies 1900 Elizabeth dies there Jan 1907 and her newborn son dies a few days later.
Tom will need a woman to look after the children. Presumably remains at 19 Newcastle St and Eliza employed as child minder. They move out before July 3 1910 (a Clinton child is born there then)
They move in with the Donnelly family at 66 Hollis Croft between q3 1909 and q2 1910. Tom and Eliza decide to marry (perhaps she insisted!)
Tom and Eliza marry from Hollis Croft 28 Aug 1910. It seems important to Eliza that she indicates they are not co-habiting (she says her address is slightly different) the
The newly weds with 3 girls move to 14 Wheeldon St around 1st July 1911. The Donnellys remain at Hollis Croft.
Winfred marries Walter Sellars in Wadsley 1920 Q4
Tom admitted to Asylum before 1921 (note the SYA was a war Hosp 1915 to 1919 so he probably was not admitted in that period). The patients were in other Asylums for that period.
Eliza and the 2 unmarried girls still at 14 Wheeldon St in 1921 census.
A Rowan family occupies 14 Wheeldon St already in Nov 1923. So presumably Eliza etc already moved out to 25ct2 Princess St by then.
1928 Tom dies in Asylum. Eliza registers the death and states she already lives at 25ct2 Princess St.
She remains there for at least a further 5 years till the girls have married.

The raw data, mainly extracted from our burials and baptisms records over to the left, is a much larger quantity of stuff. I can provide to anyone who wants it (it is a 2 page Word doc.

Dave

Hi Dave
I'd be interested in a copy please Dave.
Thanks
Karen

Karen, I need your email address
Dave

Karen, thanks yr email. I have sent you the file. Note that for each address the baptism/burial/marriage/census records are placed in chronological order of the event.
I have to say that Eliza Ann Gascoyne seems to have been a remarkable woman. She was childless but she dedicated more than 25 years of her life to those 3 girls in very difficult circumstances.
Enjoy
Dave

Hi Dave
I totally agree with you regarding Eliza and her care for Tom's daughters. Even more so as my grandmother Glenfinella had the one child, my mother, and also used to help with her care. When Eliza remarried after the death of Tom to a George Phillipson and moved to 299 Myrtle Road that care also continued. My mother used to have such fond memories.
Thanks so much for the info, very interesting.
Karen

Dave
We spoke about George Phillipson born 1865 living on Beet Street at the time of the 1821 census. Do you have the house number. please? George was Eliza's second husband.
Thanks
Karen

Sorry slip of the fingers 😃 I should have said the 1921 census

Karen, sorry no. I cannot get that. You will need to purchase the original from fmp.
I assume you have realised why they decided to move house to Princess Street.
Dave

Correction
It looks likei it was 2 Beet St. He was lodging with A Martha Broomfield and family.

Thanks got him. Funny I always thought he was a Sheffielder but everything so far is supporting he was from Sunderland. Oh how I wish we had access to the 1931 census!