I have a copy of a will dated Oct 1846 for Thomas Waters 'formerly of Clipstone Lane (notts) but recently of Sheffield' The will has been amended to that of his wife and that is dated 1852 so presumably Thomas died between 1846 and 1852. I can find no record of his death. The GRO search produces a number of registrations but none in either Sheffield or Nottinghamshire. The nearest is Manchester. I do not know of any relative living there.
Any ideas?

Jane, do you know date and place of birtrh for Thomas please. What was his wife's name?
Do you have Probate record for Thomas ort his wife please?
Dave

Thomas was baptised in Edingley near Newark on 17.August 1779. Edingley is a traditional place for births and marriages for the family so he may not have lived there. There is also family in Eakring.
His wife is called Elizabeth. The reference to Clipstone Lane as a place of residence in the will may mean that either or both were living with their daughter.
If you're thinking about the 1851 census they are not in Clipstone.
Thomas is living with his son in Stainsby on the 1841 census but Elizabeth is not with him. There is an entry for a Thomas Waters in Mansfield for 1851 but I think this is a relative not my Thomas.
I can't find an entry for Elizabeth at all.
I don't have probate, just a copy of the will. Thomas mentions as executors two men living in Beauchief Abbey. Elizabeth is sole beneficiary. Elizabeth names their son John (who lives in Ault Hucknall Derbyshire, as sole beneficiary, a solicitor is executor.
Elizabeths family are from Ault Hucknall and all their sons settle near there. All are farmers.
I hope that is some help.
Thanks

There are two deaths for a Thomas Waters one in 1849 and one in 1851 in the Shardlow registration district. Shardlow covers bothe Notts and Derbyshire.

The age of the one in 1849 says 47 the one in 1851 says 85.

I know the ages dont tally but have they been eliminated?

You have the baptism record? how old was he when he was baptised?

John

Jane
Am I correct in thinking that neither of these 2 wills ever went to Probate?
How did you find them?

Have you considered the following 2 deaths from GRO?
Q2 1856 BASFORD Elizabeth Waters 72
Q2 1857 BASFORD Thomas Waters 78

If they are correct then that would explain non Probate for the wills.
Dave

Thanks for that. The baptism record does not say how old Thomas was at the time.
I did not follow up Shardlow as it's at the other end of the county from the area they live in. I'm slightly loath to start buying certificates on the off chance given the cost but I will see if I can find a burial record there.

The will took some deciphering,and it's one document which has been amended. I'd never seen a will like it before. I viewed the will at the Borthwick in York. Is there likely to be a probate record elsewhere?
The 1852 date says that it was 'passed' then, what does this imply?
I did find a death in Sheffield for Elizabeth in 1848 which is said to be a 'sudden but natural death' but I can't find and coroners report. Death was in June, registration in September.
If the will was contested as a result, where might I find any record?
That still doesn't sort Thomas though.
Given the dates and the document Thomas definitely died before 1852 and before Elizabeth. If the 1848 death is right for her then he died between 1846 and 1848. I wondered about a mispelling of his name, but I can't think of what you'd mistake for Waters.

Jane
Would you mind sending the wills to me?
If Elizabeth died in 1848, how could she write a will in 1852?
If someone has written Passed on a will it usually means simply that they have died. Are you sure that the word passed was written on it in 1852?
My thought process is:
Thomas wrote a will in 1846 making his wife sole beneficiary.
Elizabeth wrote a will In 1852 making her son John her sole beneficiary

If they were both still alive, then subsequently Elizabeth died BEFORE Thomas then when Thomas died the son John would take them to probate. His application would be rejected because his mother had "passed" before her husband. Therefore both wills would be null and void.
Dave

Hi both

Probate Index December 1852

No 1338 - Waters, Elizabeth (wife of Thomas Waters), formerly of Clipstone Lane, Co Nttm. but late of Sheffield - 200

Denise

Thanks Denise, that was pretty much the wording on the will too. I will chase that up.Maybe it will mention when Thomas died, or at least exactly when Elizabeth did.
Jane

Dave.
your assumption is correct by my reading
Thomas made Elizabeth his beneficiary
Elizabeth made John her beneficiary.
The will is a single document, not two, and it is badly stained which renders some of it difficult to read. The will is listed in the index as the will of Thomas Waters.
The document opens saying it is the last will and testament of Elizabeth Waters made Nov 1846 BUT, after appointing executors, it goes on t0 leave everything to Elizabeth Waters 'for her life for her own sole and exclusive use'. It continues saying she can despose of the money in any way she wishes upon her own death if she makes a proper witnessed will. The document then continues saying that Elizabeth Waters in accordance with the terms stated, leaves the money to her son John appointing him sole executor. It ends 'passed 20th December 1852'.
The only way it makes sense is that the first part is Thomas's will dated Nov 1846 which has been amended and a second part added which is Elizabeth's will dated Dec 1852. Given the statement in the 1852 will that Elizabeth is complying with Thomas's wishes plus that the will is one document I feel confident that Thomas pre deceased Elizabeth sometime between 1846 and 1852.
The 'Thomas' part of the will describes him as of Clipstone Lane in the county of Nottingham but laterly of Sheffield'
I agree that the 1848 death looks unlikely given the 1852 date on the will, and this seems borne out by Denise's finding of the 1852 probate.

Jane, thank you for the clarification.
I think I can see some sense emerging based upon the laws of inheritance at the time. May I please ask you to clarify something.
You said that Thomas is with his son in 1841 and Elizabeth is not with him. Are you absolutely certain that was the correct Thomas?
Dave

Hi Both

1851 census

Thomas Waters aged 71 Labourer born in Edingley, Widower
Living alone on Bridge Street, Mansfield ???

Denise

EDIT

Sorry Jane just re read your earlier post and I think this Thomas is the one you've already seen and ruled out as not yours!!!!

Denise

Jane, Thanks for your more detailed description of the will and its legibility issues. I now believe I have made sense of your Will problem. First we need to understand the Inheritance law of the time.
If a man died without a will then automatically his property would pass to his wife to do as she pleased with for the rest of her life. Then, when she died, primogeniture would come into play and whatever remained of his property would pass to their eldest son.
So in order for Elizabeth to inherit all that had to happen was for Thomas to die and the only way for a YOUNGER son to inherit was for Elizabeth to make a will. I am sure that is what we have here. That is the link between Elizabeth's will and Thomas' death

You say "The only way it makes sense is that the first part is Thomas's will dated Nov 1846 which has been amended and a second part added which is Elizabeth's will dated Dec 1852". That does not make sense. Thomas did not need to make a will in order for Elizabeth to (temporarily) inherit.

We need to widen the search for Thomas death (no will). He could have died anytime after their last born child and BEFORE 1846 when Elizabeth made her will. Presumably something happened in the family to cause her to effectively disown her eldest son from her deceased husbands possessions. That could have happened years after his death.
The probate Denise found strongly implies that Elizabeth died in late 1852, 6 years after she wrote her will. There is no obvious death for an Elizabeth Waters. Did she leave the country after 1846? Or did she re marry that late in life so we should be looking for a different surname for her death. Could she have remarried even BEFORE 1846 but used her WATERS name for the will because the possessions she was dealing with were by law those of her deceased husband Thomas Waters.
Dave

to answer the various points raised
The 1841 entry fits for my Thomas both in age, place of birth and the fact that the William with whom this Thomas is living is the eldest son of my Thomas and Elizabeth.
( I've traced the marriage, father given as Thomas, place of birth correct)

The problem with Dave's suggestion over the will is that
the will is indexed as that of Thomas Waters
the early part of the will clearly states the money is left to Elizabeth Waters. Thomas's wife is the only Elizabeth Waters in the family and the phrase about 'sole use during her lifetime' is the one often used when providing for a widow.
In the first part of the will the money is placed in trust to be administered by the 3 executors I originally mentioned and the interest paid to Elizabeth.
The second part of the will just says that the money is left to John as sole executor.

John is their younger son. He is unmarried at this time and on the 1851 census listed as a butcher whereas William is already established as a farmer, so the second part of the will providing for John does make some sense.

As I said previously, I've never seen a will like it. I queried the indexing issue with the Borthwick staff but they had no suggestions.

I havent found a second marriage for either party.

Jane, thank you. You have now given us a new piece of info which modifies what I said. That new info is that Elizabeth did not receive the possessions. Instead it went into trust and she only received the interest. That means that there must have been a will for Thomas, and it must have been in or before 1846.
I am very happy to continue to try to solve this, but would appreciate seeing the full transcription, if not the original document.
My email is attached.
Dave

Hi Jane

Also, do you have Elizabeths birth year/place?

Denise

Jane (and Denise)

You may want to check out a couple of things on FMP
1 Thos Waters b 1771 died in 1828 in EAKRING, Notts
2 There is a probate record for him

Dave

Jane
I received the copy of the will this morning. Thank you.
I can immediately clarify the situation.

The will, in its entirety, is that of Elizabeth Waters and she signed it on 27th November 1846.
She Passed away on 20th December 1852.
The purpose of the will is simply to pass on to her son John an inheritance she received in 1835 from a man called JOHN SENIOR ROOKE of Ault Hucknall. In addition to giving her the inheritance he also gave her the right to pass it on to anyone of her choice on her death, hence her will.
The inheritance she received was a sum of £350, invested, within 12 months of Rooke's death, in trust by 3 named friends of John Senior Rooke (Edward Outram ,Farmer and grocer of Dronfield, George Maxfield of Beauchief Abbey, servant and tenant of Broughton and Benjamin Siddall Esq of Beauchief Abbey). The interest to be paid to Elizabeth.

Nowhere in the will is there any mention of, or reference to, Elizabeth's husband Thomas.
May I suggest you take a look at the will of JOHN SENIOR ROOKE. Presumably there will be more detail there about why he gave her this inheritance.

Dave

Thanks for that. It makes sense in that Ault Hucknall is where Elizabeth originates, still doesn't find her death though. There is one death registered in Basford Notts in 1853,no known connection there, and no recognisable entry on the census for 1841 or 1851. Does the reference to her as wife of Thomas infer that he's still alive when the will was made?

Jane, I am having second thoughts about the final statement in the will. It says "Passed 20th December 1852" and it is clear that it is written by the same hand which wrote the whole will in 1846. That means it was written in 1852 by Mr Beardshaw or his clerk who were the two witnesses in 1846.
Could it be that this was the date they passed it to probate? and it does not refer to her death?.In this case she would have died between 1846 and 1852
Or could it be that she died on 20th December 1852, but outside England and Wales?.
Dave

PS the ref to her being wife of Thomas is by the probate office. That cannot be assumed to mean he was still alive in 1852 (but he may have been)

Jane, a couple of facts which may muddy the waters (no pun intended)

Thursday afternoon, an in- quest was held before T. Badger, Esq., at the Rising Sun, West street, on view of the body of Elizabeth Waters. The deceased was housekeeper to Mr. Shepherd, butcher, West street, and on Monday was taken poorly. She con- tinued
10 June 1848 - Sheffield Independent - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Portobello St George burials Sheffield
Waters Elizth Died 9th Jun 1848 Age 58 of West St WIDOW OF THOS


Dave

I'd encountered some of that mud already. I found the 1848 death of Elizabeth, widow of Thomas and bought the certificate hoping the death was registered by a known relative and found the certificate was issued by the coroner after a 'sudden but not suspicious death'. I had wondered if there was an inquest report somewhere so thanks for that if it does turn out to be her. I've found at least 2 other Thomas and Elizabeth Waters
Not having much luck so far trying to find John Senior Rook though I have located a copy of the will from 1835. same executors as on Elizabeths will.
If Elizabeth did die in 1848 but the will wasn't passed until 1852 would that be because it wasn't found or for some other reason?

Just read JS Rookes will. Turns out Elizabeth Waters was his housekeeper, which makes the Sheffield death seem more likely to be right. It also explains why her husband Thomas is on the 1841 census with their son.The will is 16th December 1835. It lists all the items he left to her, quite a grand haul.
Just Thomas to go then

Jane, well found. I would love to see it
Dave

Edit, Who do I thank for getting the EDIT function back

Jane
"If Elizabeth did die in 1848 but the will wasn't passed until 1852 would that be because it wasn't found or for some other reason?"

In answer to that, the will taken to Probate was clearly the copy retained by the solicitor, whose office was in Worksop. Presumably son John (in Ault Hucknall) did not have a copy and perhaps Elizabeth's copy was not found. It looks like it took a few years for John to find the solicitor. Delays would also occur due to communication difficulties between the 3 places. How long did it take for John to discover his mother had died?
Dave

The will runs to six pages. He left small legacies to his various relatives, but Elizabeth got the best part along with the mentioned executors and friends. For such a wealthy man it's interesting he couldn't sign his name.
I would think somehow that Elizabeth did keep in touch with her family.John is on the 1851 census still living with his older brother in Ault Hucknall. His brother has a large farm courtesy of his in laws which is presumably why he didn't get any of Elizabeth's money. I wonder who kept all the mahogany tables etc.

Jane
According to Elizabeths will, in addition to the £350, all her personal possessions went to son John
Also there is an apparent discrepancy in the will which may explain the delay in passing probate. It says that in order for her nominated heir to get the £350 she had to have a will attested by THREE OR MORE credible witnesses. But it is only witnessed by two, the solicitor Thomas Beardshaw and his clerk.
Dave

Jane
It looks like the George Maxfield who was a trusted family friend and trustee to Elizabeth (and John Senior Rooke) already in 1835, remained a close friend for life.
Elizabeth's first son William died (intestate) at George's home at 60 Pomona Street in 1877 and presumably George (who was 80 then) arranged his burial at General cemetery Sharrow.
Not sure what that says about William's relationship with his parents.
Dave