Mary Ann Taylor (my great grandmother) was born in Leeds in 1959 daughter of David and Maria Taylor according to the 1861 census. In 1881 she married (my great grandfather) William Arthur Ward Turner a school master at Sheffield Cathedral on 31st October.
Earlier that year the 1881 census shows William was head of house living with his sister Annie Turner also a teacher and his younger brother Robert Sykes Ward Turner in the village of Poulshot,Devises.
Their only daughter (my grandmother) Elizabeth Lilian (always known as Lily Turner) was born on 25th May 1882. On later census records she lists her place of birth as Bath but I can find no records for her birth. Mary Ann Turner nee Taylor died when Elizabeth (Lily) was a child but old enough to remember her mother.
The 1891 census shows William Turner still teaching but a widower in lodgings but no mention of his daughter. She was very fond of her fathers sister her Aunt Annie who she said was so kind to her after her mothers death. Did she live with Aunt Annie for a while? Where did her mother Mary Ann Turner nee Taylor die and is she buried in the Sheffield area?
William Arthur Ward Turner remarried and towards the end of his teaching career taught in "Tin Town" the navvy village of Birchinlee which existed as the Howden and Derwent Dams were constructed. He died in Cobnar Road Sheffield in 1924 and is buried at Abbey Lane Cemetery. Sheffield.
Any old school photographs of him would be wonderful but any information on Mary Ann Turner nee Taylor would reaaly help my research.

Hi Judith,

I am using FreeBMD. https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

So you can check out the info I am giving you.

There is NO Mary Ann Taylor born in Leeds in 1859.

However there is one in Bath.
March of 1859 5c 748.

There is also one in Wortley
March of 1859 9c 164.
This Wortley is in Sheffield not the one in Leeds. Is that why you thought Leeds as her place of birth?

If she was born in May then neither of those two registrations fit.

Did you find a birth registration for Elizabeth Lillian in 1882?
I have found a reg in Sheffield for (Lily) FreeBMD June qtr 1882.mmn Wilcock

Noticed that the 2nd wife of Wm was..... TURNER, Elgiva (Widow, age 70).in the same grave as Wm.

Is that a correct spelling

Its getting late at this side of the pond so will leave it for others to see if they can make sense of this line.


Elaine in Ottawa.

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William Arthur Ward Turner - married in 1903 to Elgiva Radcliffe - someone on ancestry has them on a tree. There is no mention of his first wife or child.

Marriage
30 Dec 1903 • Chesterfield, Holy Trinity, Derbyshire, England
Elgiva Radcliffe
(1857–1927)

Who is the Lily White (born 1882)living with William on the 1901 census? They are in Whittington Chesterfield and Elivera Radcliffe is living in Chesterfield at the same time. She is a schoolmistress.

Hi Judith

Might be something or nothing but...

a David Taylor married Maria Forest in Leeds in 1853
Mary Ann Taylor MMN Forrest Born in J Quarter 1858 in Dewsbury

Because Dewsbury is so close to Leeds and they were living in Leeds in 1861 (and Maria gave her birthplace as Leeds)

Denise

1901 census, School House, Whittington, Northleach, Gloucestershire.
William A. W. Turner, Widower, 45, Schoolmaster, born Sheffield, Yks.
Lily White, Visitor, single, 18, Housekeeper, born Bath, Somerset.

Could the above Lily actually be his daughter? Seems odd that she is down
as Visitor and Housekeeper and born in Bath.

Moira.

No Lily White born in the Bath area around that time hoerver.

Elizabeth White june quater 1883 Bath MMN left blank

Thankyou Elaine in Ottowa,
I will check both of those out.
The birth certificate for Elizabeth Lily in 1882 is not correct.
Elgiva is the correct spelling for William Arthur Ward's second wife, yes very unusual.

Thankyou Sue,
I have seen that tree and as you say no mention of his first wife but he is listed as a widower on census records 1891 ans 1901.

Just as a matter of Interest, where did you get the date of birth for Elizabeth Lilian Turner from please. Could the date you have be a baptism date and she was baptised much later then you think.

Just a little more info to add to the possiblities.

Mary Ann Turner Death reg Dec qtr 1887 EB.9c 250

Wm Arthur Ward Turner registered Sep qtr 1855 Sheffield 9c 296 mmn Ward.
Baptisms Sheffield Parish Church. Birthdate 29th Jan 1855
Baptised 23 Jan 1856 father William & Mary a Grocers assistant address Pond St

I also noted from what must have been from a census that William was from Rotherham & Mary from Dronfield.Sorry didn't note which census.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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I thought about that deat but on the burial site on here there is a child called Willie that died in 1888. found his birth and the mother's maiden name was not Taylor. I am now wondering if the age of Mary Ann Turner when she married was not correct.

If Mary had died before 1891 as it says William was a widow 15 years agin before getting married seems to me a long time in those days so I am wondering if Mary Ann had not died but he had left her and used the term Widower to make it look as if she had died.

Judith,

You might have seen all of this already in your research, but just in case:

There was a death notice in the (Sheffield) Telegraph for Elgiva on Saturday 22 January 1927. It said that she was the beloved wife of the late William Arthur Ward Turner, and died aged 70 at 43, Cobnar Road, Woodseats,(buried Abbey Lane 24/01/1927 at 2.45).

There was also a nice In Memoriam in the Telegraph (Saturday 21 January 1928), “in memory of my dear Aunt Elgiva”, “for many years headmistress, Stonegravels, Chesterfield”, “fond are the memories that never can fade”, "from Maggie". It says “née Radcliff” incidentally.

William’s death was announced in the Telegraph on Wednesday 02 July 1924 (died at 43 Cobnar Road, buried at Abbey Lane 04/07/1924 at 2.45).

There’s also a notice about an auction in 1927 re: Mrs Elgiva Turner deceased, selling off property from her estate - a shop at 427 London Road and a big yard with stables in Guernsey Road which is close by so the yard might even have been behind the shop.

Thanks to Google I now know that there were some Anglo-Saxon queens or noblewomen called Elgiva (or Aelfgifu), one of whom was a bit frisky but another one was a saint.

Cheers,

Andrew

Thankyou Denise,
That sounds good, David Taylor and Maria Forest married in Holbeck Leeds 8th August 1853 so I think you have found Mary Ann Taylor's birth record for me. Yippee

The 1939 census. She was always known as Lily and she married Daniel Harry Denley and they lived in the Cotswold village of Brockhampton in Gloucestershire,They had 4 daughters and 1 son their only son died at just age 25years.

Thankyou Andrew,
I was aware of the wealth as I have a copy of Elgiva Turners will but I was unaware of the shop and stables.
William Arthur Ward Turner and his daughter my grandmother Elizabeth always known as Lily were not on good terms. While he was teaching at Whittington School in Gloucestershire she met my grandfather Daniel Harry Denley a Stonemason from a neighbouring village. William did not approve of Daniel but Lily would not give him up and as she was under age they needed William's permission to marry. He flatly refused so they lived together in Kidderminster until Lily was 21 and could marry the man of her choice. They returned to Brockhampton and were married for 60 years. They had 4 daughters and 1 son Oscar who unfortunately died age 25 yrs. Lily never forgave her father for his actions and as far as I know had nothing more to do with him. She was however very fond of his sister her beloved Aunt Annie and said how kind she had been to her after her mothers death.
I believe that the 1901 census showing William a teacher at Whittington in Gloucestershire and Lily White a Visitor born in Bath in 1882 is him being sarcastic regarding the situation she found herself in. What a way to treat his own daughter. I could be wrong and will never know.

Hi Sue
It is Whittington in Gloucestershire and I believe Lily White in the 1901 census is my grandmother Lily Turner and as i explained to Andrew I think William her father was being sarcastic to her.

Thankyou Moira,
I have suspected just as you say it is his daughter my grandmother I have explained in my reply to Andrew that they were not on good terms at that time.

Thankyou Elaine,
i have that death certificate for Mary Ann Turner and that Mary Ann was married to Joseph Turner a grinder not William a teacher

Judith, after the 1881 Sheffield marriage they could have gone anywhere with his teaching job. Here is a long shot. I have searched GRO index for deaths of all the Mary Turners who died between 1882 and 1891 and who were born 1859 +- 1. Here is the very short list of answers
TURNER, MARY ANN 29
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 39

TURNER, MARY 30
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 389



TURNER, MARY ANN 25
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in LEWES Volume 02B Page 119
TURNER, MARY ANN 27
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 245

TURNER, MARY ANN 24
GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 231

Only the first 2 also fit the criterion that her daughter born 1882 would remember her.

It may be worth a punt on the certificate of the first one.
Dave

Hi Judith,

When we are all firing suggestions at you it easy to become confused.

It was Wm Arthur Ward Turner I was talking about.

There is his baptisms on FMP. Or can I send it to you.

"Mary Ann Turner Death reg Dec qtr 1887 EB.9c 250"

Was that the certificate you said you had? Her age was 31 which didn't match her given birthdate? BUT as we all know that wasn't unusual with death ages.


Elaine in Ottawa.

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Thankyou Dave T,
I will send for the top two certificates later today

Hi Elaine, yes that is the death certificate I already have.

Hi Judith,,

Do you want the copy of Wm Arthur Ward Turners baptisms.

Just clearing off my desk top where I can.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Thankyou Elaine That would be good