John Henry Hudson was born in 1859 to William Hudson and Ann Woodward and they are on the 1861 census.

Now foward 10 years to 1871 and there is John Henry Hudson on the census with father William and William's wife is now Jane.

From the GRO deaths there is the death of an Ann Hudson aged 27 but not yet found her burial

Now the mystery Who is the Jane that William married? I have not been able to find a match and neither has Moira

So if anyone else wants to have a bash at solving the mystery please feel free.

John

Hi John,
On BMD there is a marriage for a William Hudson and Jane Bretnor in 1874 Sept qtr. Sheffield. Would not be the first couple to marry after a few years of living together...!!

HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

John, the William Holden and Jane you have in 1871 occur again in 1881 and 1901.Thay have more children in the 1870s (Jane and Ellen Eliza) with MMn MORGAN. Frederick William b 1870 was also MMN MORGAN (was he the 1 yr old Willie of 1871?)
Ellen Eliza married a Smith. Her marriage is on FMP and father name William, grinder.
William senior d1902) and Jane his "widow" d 1917 are buried together at City Road (see burials on here).
Dave

Thank you for your replies yes perhaps that is the correct marriage and Jane had been married before. I shall look into this

Struggling to find a marriage of a Morgan to a Bretnor to try to confirm things so perhaps there is a possible third marriage for Jane.

John,
Bretnor is a very uncommon name. According to Free BMB there is only one birth for a Jane Bretnor and that is Sheffield 1852. The same source shows only one Bretnor marrying a Jane and that was in 1937.
One other strange twist. In 1881 census William and Jane have a one year old Ada. According to GRO her mmn was Wycliffe, not Morgan. And there are no other Holden Wycliffe births!!!
Dave

Dave the name of the gent is Hudson not holden so have you been looking at the wrong name or just a typo

Jane Bretnor married George Buxton, 5 July 1874 at Sheffield Parish Church.

William Hudson married Ada Hudson, 5 July 1874 at Sheffield Parish Church.

So, this is not the right Jane.

Moira.

Thanks Moira for eliminating this from our enquiry. From the census of 1871 it seems that Jane was born in Warwickshire (from transcript) so I wonder if william after Ann's death went down south for a bit. I am also wondering if Jane was perhaps her middle name but was always known as Jane.

John, sorry, holden was a senior moment/typo. I have been looking at Hudson and Hodson.
Dave

Before we go any further are you in agreement that the 1871 census I have found for William Hudson and son John Henry Hudson is the same people as on the 1861 census but William's father is Ann. Could it be I have picked the wrong John Henry Hudson on one of the census returns and hence have to start again.

Baptisms, the first supporting the suggestion that Willie in 1871 was Frederick William...

HUDSON, Frederick William (of Pinfold Street, born 1870-02-03).
Baptised May 3, 1870, by T Rigby at St George, Brook Hill.
Parents name(s) are Jane & William (Pallet Knife Grinder).

HUDSON, Ellen Elza (of Jessop Street, born ~).
Baptised September 3, 1878, by E F Forrest at St George, Brook Hill.
Parents name(s) are Jane & William (Grinder).

HUDSON, Jane Elizabeth (of Jessop Street, born ~).
Baptised September 3, 1878, by E F Forrest at St George, Brook Hill.
Parents name(s) are Jane & William (Grinder).


Hugh

Thanks Hugh. Its still a puzzle though. Did people in those days elope up to Gretna Green to marry and hence he married in Scotland. ie do you think he knew that his wife Ann was dying and got married to Jane before she actually died?

John
I cannot find this family in 1861 so I cannot make a judgement.
It was not uncommon for couples to live together as man and wife and not bother to go through a marriage ceremony. In 1871 Jane is said to be born in Birmingham. It is quite faint but I am sure.
Dave

On the 1861 census at 67 Doncaster St, Sheff., William Hudson aged 27 gives his
place of birth as 'Crosspool'. With him is wife Ann and daughter Sarah A.

1841 census, Crosspool, Sheffield E.B.
William Harrison, 60, Grinder.
Martha Harrison, 60.
Hannah Harrison, 30.
William Hudson, 7. All born in County.

William son of John and Sarah Hudson, cutler, born 6 July 1833, bap 15 Sep 1833 at
Sheffield Parish Church.

John Hudson married Sarah Harrison, 16 Feb 1833 Sheffield Parish Church.

So up to 1861 seem right, then in 1871 William gives 'Hallam' as his birthplace
so that seems to fit in as well.

When William married Ann, the details for his father also match.

We could just do with finding a marriage between William and Jane.

Moira.

Moira, thanks. I found that family but discarded it because John Henry born 1859 is not there
I AM CONFUSED
DAVE

I am confused too thats why I thought I had got the wrong census returns for 1861 and 1871 just as a matter of interest where on the census does it say born Hallam or am I needing to change glasses. I thought it says Yorkshire, Sheffield.

Hi Moira, Dave, John et al,
There is what appears to be a partial 1861 record
Shepherd Street, for
John H. Hudson (cousin) age 1 Sheffield
Ruth Woodward (Niece) age 18 Sheffield Dom. Servant
George Grant (Nephew) 17 Bakewell Bricklayer
Ellen Grant (Niece) 10 Wadsley
Ref: Family Search
The William Hudson from Crosspool age 27 is shown on a separate
1861 record for Doncaster Street

I could not find Ann Hudson(nee Woodward) and thought she may have been in hospital etc..??

There was another 1861 census record
Allen Street for,
William Hudson age 40 Sheffield (Spring Knife Cutler &
Beer House Keeper
Ann Hudson 25 Sheffield (wife)
Margaret Samonte 30 Ireland (visitor)
John Simonite 4 ...Lancs. (visitor)
Maybe someone could make head or tale out of the above...??
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

In 1861 Ann and daughter Sarah Ann are with William in Doncaster St, but on the next page.

Hugh

John, on the 1871 census, to me it looks like William born Hallam, Yks and
Jane born Birmingham. The writing is quite faint.

Moira.

Hi Wendy,

Re the 1861 census for Shepherd St, in the side column under the address the
enumerator has written 'The head away on this night of the seventh'.

Moira.

John et al
I think I have sorted out the 1861 confusion
First of all William Hudson and Ann with Sarah Ann age 3. GRO index says Sarah Ann mmn Woodward.
Second the "partial " found by Wendy. The Ruth Woodward in that family is definitely the younger sister of Ann Woodward. Their parents were Henry Woodward and Elizabeth GRANT. Elizabeth was born Bakewell, as were Ann and Ruth and several other siblings. Elizabeths parents were Joseph Grant and his wife Ellen. So the missing head of family was presumably one of the many siblings of Elizabeth to make Ruth a niece.
So that all ties together and John Henry was being looked after by Ruth. Ann died shortly afterwards so presumably was sick at the census.
Dave

Thanks Dave, now we just need to find the missing marriage and where Ann was buried.

Not had any luck yet regarding the second marriage. Something fishy going on here I think.

John,

Have you checked FreeBMD out for the death.

Is it Dec of 1861?

Deal with one thing at once.


Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Yes I think it is because using the GRO site it says Ann Hudson was 27 when she died. i must recheck where she was in 1861 to remind me where she was living to give me a clue to where she could be buried.

William and Ann were in Doncaster Street in 1861 and John Henry was with WOODWARD relatives in Shepherd Street. These streets intersect.

These streets are not far from St Philip's church. I have 'interrogated' the Wardsend (St Philip's) burial records in various ways and I am certain that Ann'e burial is not listed there. I also checked the small number of burials which took place in the churchyard afer its official closure in 1857, also without success.

Hugh

There are 484 baptisms on this site where the family lived in Doncaster Street. About 40% of those were done at St Philip, 30% at St Jude and 20% at St Vincent.
Did St Jude have a graveyard?
Dave

Hi John,

I have looked through all the Burial information I have and this is the only one that comes close.

We couldn't make out the year but the ages is about right. If the family were not C of E then it could be her,

HUDSON, Ann (~, died on ~, at the age of 26).
Resided at Sheffield and buried on 0000-11-17 in Unconsecrated ground;
Grave Number 5 Row 12, Section CSS of Congregational Chapel Cemetery, Loxley.

Elaine in Ottawa,

PS.. Should have checked before but there are Woodwards in the same grave.

Instant Messenger: Skype

To add to Elaine's excellent find here is a lot more evidence to back it up.
1 At Loxley Cong Between that grave (5 Row 12 Section CSS) and the one next to it (6 Row 12) in addition to Ann Hudson there are:
Henry Woodward died 1857 age 50 and Elizabeth Woodward died 1893 age 78. In an earlier reply on this thread I identified Ann's parents as Henry and Elizabeth (nee GRANT.)
Also in the grave with Elizabeth are George died 1847 age 2 and Joseph died 1850 age 2. They both check out on GRO index as MMN GRANT.
There is little doubt this is the correct burial for your Ann Hudson.
Incidentally in the same grave 6 Row 12 are Ann Woodward died 1851 age 69 and Peter Woodward died 1851 age 69. They are most probably Henry's parents.
Dave

Hi John et al,
Could someone check the following found on BMD marriages:

1858 June qtr. BIRMINGHAM

William Hudson
Jane Hudson
Martin Power
Mary Edwards

I have been trying to make the link to a Jane Hudson on the 1841 census born 1841 Yorkshire as the elusive 2nd wife of William Hudson but am unable to verify.

1841 Pitt Street Sheffield
Ann Hudson 35 Yorkshire
Ann Hudson 10 ditto
Jane Hudson 0 ditto
William Bennett 25 Cheshire

1851 Chester Street Ecclesall Bierlow
William Bennett 33..? Cheshire (Cutler)(Son-unmarried..????)
Ann Bennett 48..? Sheffield (wife)
Jane Bennett 9..? Sheffield
William Hudson 28 Sheffield
Mary Ann Beardshaw 12 Sheffield

HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Thank you all for your latest replies where did you find the info regarding Loxley from please (if it is on this site I need to change my glasses)

John, not available on site. There is a purchaseable cd.
Dave

do you know if the graveyard for the chapel is still accessible and if so, how would you get to it? I have just googled it but it states it is closed but wondered if it was all fenced off etc, would love to now if there are headstones for them.

John, it is a very dangerous place. The building is burned out and the graves are very overgrown with thick brambles and other undergrowth.
I assume that the war graves at the back are kept clear but they are a long way from yours at the front.
There are earlier threads on here describing the impossibility.
Dave

Thank you for that info Dave, much appreciated and what a shame its got into a terrible state.

John, please email me
Dave

Dave, I have sent you an email.

John

If I sent off for a birth cerificate for one of the Hudson children with Mother's maiden name Morgan, should it say her other names if she had been married previously?

TRy it its about 6 pounds for a PDF copy.

Worth it then you know for sure.


Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

John and Elaine
Aas far as I am aware the question asked by the registrar is mother maiden name so I expect that is all that will show.
I have a birth cert from the same period and it shows just maiden name, even though I know for a fact that she married previously and was widowed before marrying my gg grandfather.
The two names would definitely show up on the second marriage cert.
Dave

Hi John et al,
I have a number of birth certificates from the 1870's back to the 1840's that show only the name of the child's mother and her maiden name.
However I do have one 1840's birth certificate, that did additionally record, under the same column, a 'Late' name. i.e. the mother had been married before but was then widowed.

I cannot say if the same would apply to the 1870's because most of my ancestor's re-marriages took place when the couples were older and beyond child bearing years.

Another birth certificate I have for the early 1900's shows only the mother's current married name (a contentious issue, as I have been unable to find a marriage cert.) and her maiden name but like Dave, I know for a fact she was previously married and that her husband was still living and he had also re-married.

So I think I would agree with Elaine, it is probably worth a try.
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

John, there are a couple of other mysteries in this family which I think I have just solved.
In 1871 there is a 3 yr old Albert and a 1 yr old Willie. We have already shown that Willie was Frederick William born 1859 mmn Morgan. But who is Albert?
In 1881 Frederick William is said, wrongly, to be 13. He was 11
Also in 1881 there is also an Ernest Albert, age 11. But he is out of order in the children's ages. THIS MUST BE THE Albert of 1871, but he should be 13 not 11.
So far so good.
1n 1867 to 1870 on GRO there is no suitable Albert Hudson or Ernest Albert Hudson with the correct mother maiden name of either Woodward or Morgan.
HOWEVER, there is a Ernest Albert MORGAN born in Sheffield q1 1868. And he is illegitimate. That will be why he is named out of order in 1881. I an confident that if you buy that cert you will find his mother is Jane Morgan.
That would be absolute proof that Jane was Morgan and was a spinster in 1868.
Dave

EDIT Ernest Albert Morgan married in 1887 in Sheffield. The cert is on FMP.
He did not declare a Father name, his address was JESSOP Street,( where Jane and William lived in 1878), and one of the witnesses was JANE HUDSON.

Thank you for that Dave very interesting indeed if that is the case and we still can't find the marriage I wonder if they just never officially marrried but said they had ot has there been a big transcription error etc from the certificates so its completely indexed wrongly

Sent off for cert for Ernest Albert Morgan just the heads up but the y are saying the despatch date will be a week away then add time for postal service, might just make Xmas.

John, it should be available in pdf format. Cheaper and currently arriving in less than a week.
Dave

Not too worry done now but according to GRO pdf still taking same time as cert to do

After contacting the GRO regarding a certificate it has finally come.

17 Jan 1867 at the Union Workhouse, Sheffield ERNEST ALBERT MORGAN the mother was jane Morgan and she was also in the workhouse and signed with an X on 18th Jan 1868.

The registrar has put the wrong year regarding the birthday of Ernest.

So now we know it was after 1868 when marriage took place.