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Got a dilemma, which despite a lot of research on both SI and FMP (and previously ancestry and familysearch) I haven't been able to come up with a solution for.
William Bancroft was born in 1839 to Thomas (a Cutler) and Elizabeth Wild, in Ecclesall Bierlow Union (GRO index) or Hallam (baptism). He is still around for the 1841 census.
A second William was born in 1843 to the same parents, in Sheffield North (GRO cert). Can't find a baptism record for him. Can't find a GRO death or burial record for the first William.
In the 1851 census, there's only one male child - William, born 1840 in Hallam.
In the 1861 census, William is now also a cutler, lodging in Sheffield. Birth info is 1839, in Eccleshall.
In 1862, William gets married (to Charlotte Hogg). Marriage certificate birth info is 1841.
In 1871, William and Charlotte are in Bradfield, Wortley. Birth info is 1839, in Ecclesfield.
By 1881, Charlotte has died and William has remarried (in 1872, GRO certificate is not on fmp). 1881 census birth info is 1841, in Bradfield.
In 1891 census, his birth info is 1839, in Bradfield.
William dies in 1892. Birth info is 1839 (GRO index and burial).
I have looked for the possibility that the second William was misnamed on his GRO cert, but if so, there is still no baptism record for any other kids of Thomas and Elizabeth (other than those I already know of and have accounted for), and no other kids in the 1851 census. I have checked parish burials for a possible death of a male Bancroft child in the area 1843-1851 and there are no likely candidates. I have not found another parish marriage record for a groom Bancroft with father Thomas, cutler, in the local Sheffield area. I have not found an alternative William Bancroft in the censuses.
The best idea I can come up with is that the first William died, they didn't register the death, and brought the second William up to think he was his older brother. The second best idea I can come up with is that the second William was misnamed on his GRO birth cert, not baptised, died before the 1851 census and is missing his parish baptism, and he's in the GRO deaths under another name but I can't find out unless I order the certs of every male Bancroft who died in the Sheffield area and hope to luck out.
Has anyone ever come across something like this before? Father Thomas himself also seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth by 1861, mother Elizabeth died in 1857 and the death was registered by her brother, who then took in their young daughter Mary, who is with them as an 'orphan' in the 1861 census. Can't find Thomas's death anywhere in the Yorkshire area, I'm assuming he took off and either died somewhere else or disappeared. His details do not turn up in 1861+ censuses.
I should note that I've also checked the newspaper archive for these names and dates and nothing's showing up. Was hoping for a birth or death mention, or that Thomas was in trouble with the law or for ditching his family, but no.
Ideas for what the heck is going on here would be most appreciated.
Have you considered that the second birth may have been to a different couple?
The birth cert would answer that.
Dave
The GRO shows two Williams Bancrofts as you stated one 1839 one 1843 both have mothers maiden name as Wild.
Hi
I can understand your confusion.
There are 2 birth registrations for a William Bancroft.
BANCROFT, WILLIAM WILD
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW UNION Volume 22 Page 117
BANCROFT, WILLIAM WILD
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 22 Page 561
I haven't been able to find a death for the first William.
In 1841, William Bancroft b.1839 is living with his parents in Bradfield.
In 1851, the family had moved to Crooksmoor, Ecclesall.
Maybe they registered William's birth again when they moved.
I couldn't find a birth registration for his sister Emma born about 1841 but sister Mary b.1850 IS registered. Another theory - should the 1843 registration be for Emma not William.
I think you may have to buy the birth certificates to solve this problem.
There are 2 baptisms for a William Bancroft.
Son of Thomas (cutler) and Elizabeth at Sheffield Parish Church 3 Mar 1839, born 21 Jan 1839.
Son of William (grinder) and Elizabeth of Dungworth, at St Nicholas, Bradfield on 15th Jun 1845
Hi
There is a suitable birth registration for the second baptism that Anne found.
BANCROFT, WILLIAM COLDWELL
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in WORTLEY UNION Volume 22 Page 730
There is a marriage in Ecclesfield
First name(s) William
Last name Bancroft
Residence Ecclesfield
Marriage year 1832
Marriage date 26 Dec 1832
Marriage place Sheffield, St Mary, Ecclesfield
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Coldwell
Spouse's residence Ecclesfield
There is a birth registered in 1845 in Wortley, for a William Bancroft, mmn = Coldwell.
Not the 1843 William then.
Anne
Findings.
Bap.
Bancroft, William (of Sheffield, born 1839-01-21).
Baptised March 3, 1839, by T.Sutton at Sheffield Parish Church, Church Street, Sheffield.
Parents name(s) are Elizabeth & Thomas (Cutler).
*****************************************************************************************
I can only find two Williams on the index.(1841)
Bancroft, William of Birkin House, Bradfield. Aged 26 years.
(Piece #1327/2, folio 18a, enumeration district 8.)
Bancroft, William of Dungworth, Bradfield. Aged 25 years.
(Piece #1327/2, folio 54b, enumeration district 10.)
********************************************************************
Elaine in Ottawa.
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I have the 1843 GRO birth certificate for the second William. It clearly states William, a boy, born 4 August 1943. So if it was for Emma instead, they've messed up year of birth by two-three years, name and sex. If it was a re-registration for the first William they've messed up the date of birth completely (first William was born 21 Jan 1839 according to his baptism certificate). And his parents were married (have certificate) in 1838, so there would be no need to reregister him for legitimacy.
Yes, daughter Emma's GRO birth is missing too. I don't have a scan of her baptism record, in my notes I have "BAPTISM; Emma Bankcroft dau of Thomas and Elizabeth (Cutler), Bap.4th Oct 1840.". I'm not sure where I got that from originally, it's not from fmp or SI.
Because Emma's GRO birth is missing too, it makes me think that they were just really slack with notifying the authorities about their kids' births and deaths at the time. But that still doesn't explain why the second William would be using his older brother's year of birth. I would understand if it was to up his age to get his cutler's apprenticeship and/or marriage, but it was upped already by the 1851 census, making him 11-12 years old instead of seven. Surely a kid of seven couldn't pass for an 11-12 year old when it came to apprenticeship time?
Also, can those local to Sheffield tell me which of the places of birth mentioned in the GRO, baptism and census can be considered the same places? Are Hallam and Bradfield the same area, for example? Is Eccleshall the same as Ecclesfield?
Hi,
Using the Sheffield Registry Office Site.
District: Upper Hallam & Dore
Birth - 1/11
Details: William BANCROFT - 01/01/1839
****************************************************
District: Sheffield North
Birth - 14/73
Details: William BANCROFT - 01/01/1843
***********************************************************
I will keep looking.
PS. I think the first William is the correct one as he certainly is the 13 year old on the 1851 census. There is a mistake on the 1851 where it states his place of birth is Dungworth where on the 1861 census it states Ecclesall.
As he was baptised at Sheffield Parish Church I am leaning towards the Ecclesall as place of birth which probably should be Ecclesall Bierlow reg district.
Elaine.
Instant Messenger: Skype
Elyssa,
You said "Are Hallam and Bradfield the same area, for example? Is Eccleshall the same as Ecclesfield?"
Ecclesall (no "h") is definitely a different place from Ecclesfield. Ecclesfield is away North of the town, Ecclesall is an area which is sort of South and West from the town centre. Ecclesall and Ecclesfield are several miles apart from each other.
If you look up Eccleshall (with an "h" in it) then it'll get confusing because that's another completely different place miles away from Sheffield.
Hallam or Hallamshire are names from deep in history and I never had any idea of where the borders of Hallam would be. You can read about it in Wikipedia though. They reckon that Bradfield would be part of Hallam.
Bradfield is to the West of Sheffield.
Cheers,
Andrew P.
Hi Andrew,
Have a look at this map for Parishes.
http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/SheffieldIndexersSiteMap_Index.html
We used to have a map showing the Registration Districts but not sure where that is anymore.
I will keep looking.
Found the one I was thinking of......Boundaries for Sheffield but of course it doesn't show Bradfield or Ecclesfield (Wortley Registration District) Ecclesfield by the way used to cover all the way down to Malin Bridge. Ecclesfield used to be the largest parish in the area covering Bradfield then up to just below Barnsley not sure of its eastern boundaries.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Sheffield_1823_plan.jpg
Elaine in Ottawa.
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Elyssa
Bancroft at that time was not a common name in the Sheffield area.
Checking GRO index your second William was registered in 1843. In 1845 Sheffield there is only one Bancroft death, and that is 2 yr old George. I can find no trace of a George born 2 yrs before that, only your William.
George Bancroft was buried at Portobello St George on 2 Sept 1845, age 2. his address was Pitt Street and he was SON OF THOMAS.
I wonder if whoever registered the birth was perhaps drunk at the time?
Dave
Hi Elyssa,
It certainly is a messed up family.....
It was bugging me that he wasn't showing up on our 1841 census index.
I have now found the family under the surname of Baucroft.(hard to read on the original.)
I will certainly change it in our database......
BUT it raised two more queries which I am trying to sort out.
One being the address (Rallen Raiser or Ratten Raw) at that time. The second one.... Emma is there but her age could be one or 1 month or as FMP have it 12years. The later I doubt as her mother was listed as being 20 + or -.
So yes I will change the surname so you can see for yourself what we have and work on the other queries.
Elaine in Ottawa.
Instant Messenger: Skype
Hi Elaine - yes, I noticed the problem with Emma's age. I figure it was probably supposed to be 12 months instead. Also, 'Ratten Raw' could possibly be 'Rotten Row'? That sounds more like a street name or area to me. I doubt the family had much money.
Dave T, where did you get that info about the burial of George? It's not on SI or fmp.
It is on a cd I have of Sheffield church burials.
Dave
Thank you Dave, I got your email. I think I will order the GRO certificate of George Bancroft's death. His grandfather's name was George so that fits at least.
Hi,
Still working on the address........
BUT...
The 1851 census of the apprentice is NOT your guy.
The one I found reads...
Township of Ecclesall Bierlow Ecclesiastical District (Crookes) Borough of Sheffield
Address Crookes Moor.
Thomas Bancroft H.M. aged 36 Cutler (Table Blade) born Bradfield.
Elizabeth wife aged 33 born Ecclesall
William son aged 11 born Hallam
Emma dau aged 10 born Ecclesall
Mary day aged 1 born Hallam
The Ecclesall for place where born is Probably Ecclesall Bierlow
and the Hallam could be either be Upper or Nether Hallam.
Did you just say that Thomas fathers name was George.
On Thomas & Elizabeth nee Wild marriage cert it says Thomas father was a Cutler named Robert
and Elizabeth's father was George.
Elaine.
Note the Dungworth Bradfield family I am sure are related.
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There is also a Walter Bancroft, born 1848 mmn Wild and subsequent death the same year on GRO.
He is buried at Fulwood, listed as:
BANCROFT Walter 1 May 1848 Watery Lane 7m?
He is the only Bancroft listed in the graveyard.
Hi Richard, yes Walter is another child of theirs.
Hi,
I once came across Ratten Row when researching my dads side of the family.
It was a popular name for Radford Row, which ran off Townhead Street.
A report of it from 1832 said “ the houses of Radford Row made an island, their backs to Broad Lane End, and ran from the bottom of Townhead Street (which Gosling marks as Well Street) to Tenter Street. The Town Trustees tinkered at this squalid purlieu in 1831; later, as one of the most noisome haunts of iniquity in the town it was wholly swept away and it’s site makes the eastern side of the space at the bottom of new Hawley Street.”
Heths
Ignore my post. When Elaine said Ratten Raw I immediately thought of the one I’d come across. I just realized now the one you mean is in Bradfield. Sorry !!
From Yorkshire Historical Dictionary on line
‘Ratton Row’ is a minor place-name which occurs so frequently across the north of England that it is tempting to see it as a generic, applied to any row of houses or cottages which was rat infested or perhaps just run down.
On further searching it was actually country wide.
Dave
GRO death certificate for George Bancroft, died 1845 has arrived.
Registrars district of Sheffield West
No. 457/1845
Died 31st August 1845 at Pitt St, Sheffield
George Bancroft
Male
2 years
Son of Thomas Bancroft, Spring Knife Cutler
Pneumonia 4 days (certified)
Registered by his father, who was present at the death, on 2nd September 1845.
So it seems that the second William should have been called George on his birth certificate. Many thanks to Dave T for giving me the info on the burial. I'll upload the certificate info to the SI BMD Indexing project so others can find it in future.
Many thanks for everyone's help and advice.
Hi Heather/Elyssa
Re 1841 census address.
Just spoke with Malcolm Nunn from Bradfield Archives.
That address we couldn't read was Ratten Row...... for you and anyone interested in that area.
His explanation.
**The address is Ratten Row in Stannington, looking at the route of the enumerator I believe it is what was later known as Clod Hall which were a row of back-to-back houses near top of Spout Lane and were demolished in late 1960s/early 1970s.**
I have changed it in our 1841 census index.
Elaine in Ottawa.
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Elaine and Malcolm
I had an ancestor who lived in Clod Hall, alternatively known as Clot Hall. It was exactly where Malcolm Malcolm said it was, between Spout Lane and Nook Lane, to the west of Hanmoor and Knowle top. However it was not the the Ratten Row of the 1841 census, which by following the route of the enumerator was to the east of Knowle Top, sandwiched between Knowle Top and Nook End. On modern maps it was on the South side of Stannington Road just to the east of Knowle Top. If you want i will provide very large scale 1864 maps of the 2 different places.
Dave