Hi, I am trying to find the correct parents for Henry Hibberson Ibbotson. The family tree on Family Search says his father is Joseph Ibbotson and his motherf is Martha Bramall. Is this correct?

Hi Cathie,

Dates address would help and his occupation.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Hi Elaine,
On the 1841 census Henry Hibberson/Ibbotson is living on Earl Street Sheffield, is occupation is Anvil Maker and his age is 57.

Hi Cathie,

I was trying to see where we had got to last time around but its not showing for some reason or other.

1841 census Earl Lane Sheffield Piece 1337/7 Folio 42a.
Thats from our transcription. Henry Ibbotson not Hibberson.

I have looked again at what it actually says on the original

Henry is listed as being 57 on our transcription but I now believe that there is the possibility it should be 51. That would make a birth year of 1790 & 1784 if he was 57.
I believe we said he died before the 1851 census am I correct?

Henry's first son looks to be a Joseph.

There is a baptism at Bradfield for Henry son of Joseph of Onesacres
13th May 1787.

However I would love to see if there is a Henry baptised at the Parish Church Sheffield before I say the Bradfield chap is your chap.

Question for you..... have you followed all the children from the 1841 census to see if there are any further hints to Henry's parentage.

I believe you said the Joseph aged 14 years on the 1841 census was your ancestor.

For oldies like me I have to have the facts spelt out as I answer so many inquiries that I do forget where we got to.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Where we got to last time is in the thread Joseph Ibbotson born 1828. It was a couple of weeks ago.
Cathie, what evidence do you have that the info on Family Search about Henry's parents could be incorrect?
Do you think you have found another possibility?
Dave

I have Joseph & Martha (Bramall) as an indirect link on my tree with a John, Robert (Deborah Hague ) & Joseph (Mary Ollerenshaw) but no Henry?. My Joseph & Martha married 29 May 1786 Bradfield. But I'm not sure if I have the family totally correct so sorry if it does not help!!

Just noticed there are 2 marriage record on this site for Joseph Ibbotson & Martha Bramall. 1759 & 1786

Hi All,
I have found the 1786 marriage for Joseph and Martha. The alternative set of parents fot Henry Hibberson Ibbotson that keeps appearing is Timothy Hibberson Ibbotson, born 1751 and Sarah Booth 1756 to 1842. On that tree, Henry is born in 1789.whatever tree I attempt to follow, Iam still struggling to find the William Ibbotson, born 1848, who is listed as Joseph Ibbotsons nephew on the 1861 census. When I cleared my late parentsw house after my mothers death, I found what appears to be an illuminated riddle that has the name William Ibbotson and the date 1818 on it.On the tree with Timothy Hibberson Ibbotson as Henry`s father, I cannot find a William whose dates would include 1818. Unfortunately, my mother had no interest in family history and she seemed to think it was her grandmothers (Martha Harrison) grandfather or great uncle, but was vague about it.

Hi Cathie,

Just making sure that you don't have two or three Ibbotson Trees all mixing different family lines together.

David Ibbotson and myself have tried to find a link with both our trees and have been unsuccessful. Most of my Ibbotsons originated in Tankersley (Wortley) moving on to Ecclesfield.They were Farmers/Ag Labs.

Timothy Ibbotson baptised 1754 and Sarah Booth are my 4x great grandparents.
They had 12 children. A Timothy,Henry & a William amongst them.

Timothy baptised 1792 married Martha Machen baptised 1796 is my 3xgreat uncle.
Henry baptised 1785 married Martha Hague 3xguncle.

I am going to have a look at that 1861 census you have for Joseph and see if I can see anything different. Just remembered didn't I find a Methodist baptism for Joseph????

My gut feeling is we have a Sheffield born family that we keep missing for some reason.(Nonconformists maybe)

Thats why I feel records at the Cathedral might bear fruit or at least be ruled out. I am not picking anything up on FMP for Henry circa 1784/1790. My disk for Cathedral baptisms (Parish Church)was acting up last night and we had two power failures (due to the heat). So will go and try and make sense of this allusive Henry.

Elaine.

PS... WENDY & DENISE we could use you sleuth like abilities.........Moira is busy checking more transcriptions at the moment. DaveT not forgetting you as well.

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Cathie
Finding Henry Ibbotson’s parentage is not easy so we have to start with all the facts we can find. We are lucky that Henry and Rachel with their children are on all the censuses from 1841 to 1871, and we have Henry’s death in 1875 age 86. All these sources consistently tell us that Henry was born 1879 in Ecclesfield and Rachel was born 1800 (1841 says out of Yorkshire and 1851 says Bradwell Derbyshire, which is near Hope). Both Henry and Rachel were illiterate and on their marriage Henry is mistakenly recorded as a bachelor. He was definitely a widower.
That pretty well rules out the Henry born 1785, father Timothy. David has already ruled out Joseph who married Mary Bramall.
Their children, from censuses, were (with approx. year) Joseph 1827 (whose mother was Henry’s first wife Elizabeth Brown), George 1828, Jonathon 1831, Christiana 1834, Elias 1835, Hannah 1837, Mary Ann 1841 and Sarah 1844. In addition, Henry had Elizabeth (1821) with his first wife Elizabeth
A picture begins to emerge when we look at baptisms. Here are a few facts
From FMP Rachel Middleton baptised Hope, Derbys 1807, ie 7 years old
From our baptisms over to the left
On Dec 27 1829 3 baptisms Elizabeth (mother Elizabeth) (8 yrs old), Joseph (Mother Elizabeth) (2 yrs old), George (Mother Rachel)(a few months old)
On Oct 16 1831 Jonathon (6 months old)
On Jan 14 1869 Mary Ann (AGE 28) and Sarah (AGE 25) (these 2 check out on GRO index as MMN Middleton)
On Jan 12 1871 Christiana (AGE 37)
I suggest that Henry b 1789 Ecclesfield may have been baptised quite a bit later than 1789, and possibly even as late as the 1870s.
Dave

EDIT The easy way to see all the baptisms together is to searh *ib*s*n in surname,and Henry in Father name. Ignore the few spurious results or to eliminate those do 2 searches, trhe first with Henry and Rachel and the second with Henry and Elizabeth

Elaine

Did your Timothy Ibbotson (Sarah Booth) have a son Reuben who married Maria Pashley?

Hi David,

Dont tell me we have finally connected.LOL.

Reuben is my 3xg/uncle.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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DavidT,

Good sleuthing... Just checked my Ecclesfield baptisms 1824-1904 No Henry that fits.
mmmm I wonder if they were Baptists? I believe they quite often went for adult baptisms.

DavidI.

How about Henry son of Joseph Ibbotson of Onesacre at Bradfield. 13th May 1787.
(Joseph & Martha)?

Looking back at the Ibbotsons in Bradfield/Ecclesfield the name Henry does seem to appear quite often.

I must see if I can find a baptism page for Bradfield that we would not have transcribed because we couldn't read it. Pages were not numbered so a big task.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Elaine

Possibly yes??

Reuben & Maria had a son Thomas Pashley Ibbotson who had a daughter Charlotte she married Thomas Wood and had a son George Wood who married Annie Worrall Ibbotson who was the daughter of Joseph Ibbotson & Angelina Worrall, Joseph is the son of my Joseph Ibbotson & Matilda Hobson. My family tree maker relationship calculater does show a link although distant. What do you think!!!

Hi there,

Yes definitely.

I can follow through to George Wood. I no longer have my tree on Tribalpages
but it is on FMP.

I can send you PDF Files if you are interested.

George Wood is a 3rd cousin twice removed in my tree.
I will let you know what I need to complete your line CUZ.


Elaine in Ottawa.

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Hi Elaine, Dave and David,
Would it help if I emailed one or all 3 of you this riddle? It definately was done by somebody who was reasonably literate. Cathie

Cathie, as far as I understand it we are trying to identify the parents of Henry Ibbotson born Ecclesfieldin 1789.
Is that the riddle.
Or is there another one.
Whatever you have you should perhaps email it to me and we can try to move forward.
Dave

Morning Cathie

I have changed the 1841 census index to read that Henry's age was 51 not 57.


Elaine in Ottawa.

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Hi Cathie,

If you would like yo send it to me. I can see what this other person has and it just might link us into the same tree. With Dave Ibbotson we have finally Linked in after many years of trying to find it.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Hi Cathie

Could you send to me also.

David

Hi Elaine, Dave and David,
Have emailed this "riddle" as requested.Please let me know if it arrives.
Cathie

Recieved.

Obviously a William Ibbotson from Oughtibridge owing to the Quote " sense as it ought to be" and probably quite well off!! I'm thinking in the dark here....could it be the Henry Ibbotson (born 1788s ) the miller of Burnside Mill and who had a son William. This was the family who bequeathed the Oughtibridge Field. May be way out, but just a thought.

Cathie, I have received nothing
Dave

Hi Dave, I have just resent it, so hopefully you should have got it this time. Cathie

Cathie, I have received it.
It is a very floral but simplistic riddle. But where did it come from and how does it connect to the subject of your question about Henry Ibbotson

What do you want to know about it?
Dave

Cathie, would still like answers to my questions.
Is this linked to Henry Ibbotson, the subject of this thread, or is it something completely separate.
I can tell you that the basic content of the page dates from much earlier than 1817.
I have found reference to this almost exact riddle as early as 1640.
When I say almost exact I mean that your copy contains at least 3 spelling errors, one of which might just be a modernised ( that is modernised in 1817) spelling of the word
There are also references in a 1825 publication of Kaleidoscope which reports a false claim in a london newspaper of someone claiming this riddle as their original. The writer stated that he knew the riddle as a child some 40 yrs before, ie 1785. He also said that in those young days it was sold by booksellers for 1d.
There are online databases with , I believe, original 17th century images in, but they require subscription.
The implication is that whoever William Ibbotson, 1817 was, he was falsely claiming to be the originator.
Dave

Hi Dave,
Sorry for having taken so long to reply. My late mother was under the impression that it was done by her paternal grandmothers grandfather or great uncle, but was not all sure. It was from her house. Thanks for the interesting background information about it. I would be interested to see if this William fits into my tree anywhere, as I have still not found a William, born 1848, who could be described as Joseph Ibbotsons nephew on the 1861 census.
Cathie

Cathie

Family Search 1861 has a William Ibbotson 1848 as a nephew, occupation whitesmith, living in HermitageStreet Ecclesall Bierlow with the following Ibbotson family...Thomas (son 1854) Mary (daughter 1856) Frederick (son 1858) Frank (son 1861) It also has a Brother in law Zacharial Ibbotson 1832. But the record's not showing head of house or wife. Does anyone have access to the original to check out head of family.

Hi DavidT/Cathie,

We went over that in the first round. 1861 census.

Head of House hold is Joseph Ibbotson aged 33 Anvil Smith Wadsley. It was the Anvil Smith that caught my eye.
wife Martha son John then the ones you listed from family search.

I am currently on the hunt for a Joseph Ibbotson who married a Matilda Hobson one of David Ibbotson's rellies. Sooooo many Josephs much harder to trace than the Henry's.

Elaine in Ottawa.

My tree is certainly growing with all these new Ibbotsons.

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Hi David,
I have a copy of that census, which gives Joseph Ibbotson, age 33, born 1828, as head of the household. Think that the Zacharial Ibbotson should read Zacherial Antcliff.
Cathie.

Woops that's my error

Elaine

What do you want regarding Joseph & Matilda?

I have Joseph's will and headstone along with a record regarding Matilda's court case for unpaid medical bills.

David

Can I just clarify. The 1861 census for this family was discussed in Cathies previous thread of a few weeks ago.
The ibbotson family is listed first with ditto for surname. Then comes Zacchariah ditto brother in law and finally William ditto nephew.
We know that Zachariah Antcliffe was Brother in law to That Joseph Ibbotson. Therefore the ditto opposite zachariah is clearly an error. What we therefore do not know is whether the nephew William was actually Antcliff or Ibbotson.
Dave
Edit, or William may have had another surname

Hi David,

Could you send me the Will please.

I dont have his parents as yet. Any hints??? Thanks.

I did find a death of a Joseph aged 13 so there must have been two Josephs born 1796/7

Elaine.

I am getting there slow but sure.LOL.

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Elaine

John Ibbotson 1765-1844
Mary Marshall 1763-1847

I will email Joseph's will and details regarding John & Mary tomorrow. Mary Marshall was the sister of Sarah Marshall who married Benjamin Hudson of Water Hall Penistone. I will also send Sarah Hudson's will.

David

Hi Dave,
Many thanks for that information. Cathie

Hi Dave,
Sorry for taking so long to reply. This is just to confirm that Joseph Ibbotson, born 1828 in Wadsley, is the Ibbotson I am trying to trace backwards. His daughter Mary, married William Harrison and their daughter Martha married William Baldwin. Martha and William were my late mums paternal grandparents. The riddle was originally under glass, as part of a flimsy wooden table, which unfortunately was knocked over, breaking the glass, Unfortunately, mum died before my husband could replace the glass top, so, as it fitted an empty picture frame, with glass already in, that is where it is. Cathie.

Cathie have we looked at this before.?

15 Jun 1828 IBBOTSON Joseph Robert Sarah Butcher Wadsley

Its a baptisms at Ecclesfield which was the Parish that covered Wadsley at this time.


Elaine.

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Cathie, thanks.
So just to confirm I have it right. When you said that your mother said the riddle may have been done by the grandfather of her paternal grandfather that would be Joseph Ibbotson born 1827. Alternatively she said it could have been great uncle, which I assume means a brother of Joseph. Both of those must be out by a generation because the riddle was done in 1817 by a William Ibbotson who must have been born at the very latest about 1806.
At the very top of the riddle is the large word QUEEN. Can you read the two words immediately below that please?
It looks something like ????ance Co???ion
Alternatively can you take a close up of that area and send to me please?
Dave

Have I missed something on this thread or is the riddle on another thread?

Hi John

No you havent missed anything. The riddle hasnt been 'published' on this forum. Its a picture of the original that Cathie has and shes emailed it directly to those who requested to take a look.

Denise

Thanks Denise, I thought I might have had to go to specsavers!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Dave,
Have emailed you a picture as requested but the words below Queen are not really clear.
Cathie

Hi Elaine,
Think that Robert and Sarah were discounted in the last thread, as Henry is given as Josephs father, when Joseph married Martha Antcliff.
Cathie

As we are having so much trouble finding an appropriate "Henry" I really feel we should close it up.

Cathie if you and Dave want to carry on I would suggest that you do it privately. Its always upsetting when we just can't find a person.

I managed on Family Search to just bring up Oughtibridge Parish Church where there are oodles of Ibbotsons but "NO" Henry that suited the time period.

Sorry to put a hold on this thread.


Elaine in Ottawa.

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Just wanted to end this one on a positive note because we did finally find Henry's parents,and two of his brothers.
It looked impossible because it looked likely that Henry was not baptised, backed up by his many children and grandchildren showing many unusual baptism traits. Missing baptisms, block baptisms and very late baptisms.
We ran out of conventional sources. Fortunately Cathie had an heirloom of a piece of artwork, the Riddle, done by a William Ibbotson and dated 1817. From burial records it was possible to identify him as Henry's older brother, a filesmith who is in the Apprentices and Freemen list, along with another brother George, both of whom were apprenticed to their father Thomas. Then it all fell into place. Thomas was married to Christiana Nut and none of their children were baptised. Henry named one of his children Thomas and another Christiana to further tie him in.
The icing on the cake was finding William's wedding cert. He was literate and his signature was beautiful, the best handwriting on the register, showing his artistic bent.
No surprise that there are several public trees with the wrong ancestors.
It would not have been possible without that heirloom.
Brick wall breached. Case closed.
Dave