Could someone please help me to find out the Christian names of the residents at Eltham Villas Vickers Road in 1917,I believe the Husband was Harry Smith but have no details of any other occupants. I am trying to put together a family tree for my wife and we believe these people to be her Great Grandparents and hope fully if I can get the names I can go on from there.Many thanks Jim

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Hi Jim,

FMP shows 27,000 Harry Smiths listed for Sheffield Yorkshire.

Sooooo my suggestion would be to give us the name, DOB, occupation of her grandparents and we could set you in the right direction.

Its very important to have these early relatives correct and that usually means buying a few certificates.
All can be done on line so Covid should not slow you down.

Elaine in Ottawa.

PS. Have you looked at FreeBMD, the GRO index, Sheffield Council BMD site.Our own database 2 million entries should also help.(Over to the left)

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just a heads up it is taking approx 2 weeks for certificates to come from the GRO at Southport

Hi John but the PDF Files will be faster I am sure.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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NO Elaine

pdfs are still taking about 2 weeks - just received some. They are good value at only £7 though.

Is there a Kelly's Street Directory for 1917 showing residents of Vickers Rd.

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There is a Kellys for 1917 which would be at the local studies library, not sure if it is open yet and don't know if you can just walk in to look. I hope one would correct me but don't kelly's only give people of voting age.

What year was Harry born and what was his wife called just wondering if they might be on the 1939 register but as Elaine says if we could have some names we might be able to solve the mystery for you.

Where did you get the address for Harry from please?

John

Jim,
Elaine has provided some info to me.
I assume from your original question you are already aware of the Marriage announcement of Harry Smith of that address in the Sheffield Telegraph of 8th March 1917, and of the Marriage cert (7th March) at St Cuthberts.
Please confirm. If you do not have them then I will supply all the details. I see your problem in that his parents are just named as Mr and Mrs Smith.
Dave

I got details of Harry's sons
marriage at St Cuthberts to Vera marriage from the Sheffield Evening Telegraph there was a announcement of his marriage on 7th March 1917 .His parents were named as Mr & Mrs Smith with the address, I have a copy of the marriage certificate.
Harry Smith(son)b1893
Vera Gladys Bailey b1896
Vera lived at 83 Bolsover Road.
Harry's address was listed as 106 Hudson Rd Woolwich he was in the
R.A.M.C.

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That's right Dave just Mr
& Mrs Smith but father is Harry as well, Vickers Road is all that is mentioned.

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could Harry 1893 have been born in Nottinghamshire?

1901 census for 16 Matilda Street, Sheffield

Harry Smith aged 8 living with parents Harry Smith aged 32 born Oxfordhire and Matilda Smith also 32 born Nottinghamshire Harry snr was a labourer/electrical engineer.

There were also two daughters Mary born 1890 and Ellen born 1895

before I go any further could this be your family?

Just adding a little more I had found.

Births Mar 1896
Bailey Vera Gladys Mt. Bosworth 7a 74

The district Mt. Bosworth is an alternative name for Market Bosworth and it is in the county of Leicestershire;

Could this be Vera's birth registration.

From the marriage cert it gives Harry's fathers name also as Harry and looks to me that he witnessed the marriage. I can't make out what his occupation was...Foreman Engineer in "Shoal" Works. [Steel Works?]


Elaine

PS Sorry I forgot to mention Dave that Jim had sent me the information I forwarded to you.
PPS. I had also looked at that one John.......

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I have no idea about Nottingham
or any Siblings.Im sure if we could access a 1917 street Register or Elctoral register for Vickers Rd this would clear things up.Harry Senior is on the marriage Certificate as a foreman Engineer in Steel works.Harry junior is In R.A.M.C.

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or this family from 1911 census

Harry Smith 18 Reaper Bar Maker living at 44 South View Crescent. Harry was born in Sheffield.

He was living with parents Harry born 1862 a metal Smith born Sheffield and Ada born 1864 in Sheffield

Two daughter Emily Evelyn born 1886 and Gladys born 1898.

in 1901 Vera Gladys Bailey was living at 83 Bolsover Road Seffield with her grandparents

Charles and Annie Deane. There is also what I believe could be her mother Vera J Bailey aged 29 and a widow.

I've seen the South view one but it's about 4 miles away from where Vera lived and as this was the War years I think his family may have lived closer to her and Vickers Rd fits the bill.I don't know, honestly as Smith is a hard name to trace and the problem being was that after he and Vera had had 2 boys Vivian And Derek Harry emigrated to New Zealand in August 1921 and allegedly died there soon afterwards, so he was only spoken of to my wife as being a man who ran away.His own children never knew him and Derek wasn't born when he left.So as you can see this is a needle in a haystack I know the ship he travelled on and he's on the passenger list travelling to Auckland with his last known address as 83 Bolsover Rd.SSad story really.Jim

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I think Harry died in New Zealand in 1933. If you go on the NZ government website and search the death index there is a death registered for a Harry Smith aged 37 in 1933. That seems the only one that fits. Please be cautious though with this

Hi Jim

This is 1925 Kellys - may be worth checking out?

SMITH, Harry Dennis (~, Consulting Engineer).
Address: 32 Vickers Road, ~ in 1925.
Recorded in: Sheffield & Rotherham Kellys Directory.


Vicki

Hello Vikki, is any other person listed ?

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Hi
I also found a Harry Dennis Smith in a 1919 White's Directory living at 32 Vickers Road.

Harry Dennis Smith died in 1932. There is a notice in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph 15 Sept 1932-husband of E.Smith.

Probate for Harry Dennis Smith to Widow Elizabeth Smith.

Hope this is a lead.

Sue

Harry Dennis Smith was 61 when he died.

Jim, a couple of observations if I may.
1. The south view one has another problem. That Harry senior was a worker in the piano industry in both 1911 and 1891 (brass was his metal) so not an engineer in the steel industry.
2. The story about running away to New Zealand is unlikely to be the whole truth. It was very common for a man to emigrate leaving his family behind, with the intention that they would follow him once he had established himself in work. If he did that, he would not be the first to pass away soon after arrival, thus preventing the next step.
If he had run away I would not expect him to give his correct address on his ticket. Even in New Zealand the law could reach him to provide for his family back home.

Dave

Harry Dennis Smith 1932-61 =1871. There is no match for this on the free BMD site unless of course he was Scottish I presume we are thinking this is Harry's father. I wonder if the maiden name therefore of Harry born 1896 mother was Dennis?

Hello John S Harry would have been 40 but I will look at it.Still got to sort out this end before I move on to w New Zealand. Cheers

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Hello Dave T as i said it was only What my wife was told mainly by her Father who was only 3 when he left but she believes he had gone to set things up as well.I am only an in law and was never told anything.

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Hi Jim

No other entry, Kellys only tend to list the occupation of the head of house

Probably need to look at the voters lists

1911 Census could be him....


Name: Harry Dennis Smith

Birth Place: St Anns, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Bedford
Street address: 15 London Road, Bedford
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Machine Shop Foreman Engineering

Harry Dennis Smith 40
Elizabeth Smith 31
Harry Smith 18

Vicki

Not sure if this is any significance If Harry was 40 in 1911 then born circa 1871

another name for Harry is Henry so on the GRO website Henry Davis Smith born Nottingham mother's maiden name is Davis

Hi

In the Sheffield Daily Telegraph 19 Sept 1932, there is a description of the funeral of Harry Dennis Smith. He was a well known Congregationist-a deacon of Queen Street Congregational Church. A native of Nottingham, owned a motor business and held positions in Birmingham, Leicester, Luton and Bedford before settling in Sheffield. No mention of family.

Sue

Harry Dennis Smith married Elizabeth Irons 1906 Barrow on Soar ( Leicestershire). Must be his second marriage because Elizabeth Age 31 in 1911 was too young to be the mother of young harry.
Dave

The Harry im looking for would have been 18 in 1911 his Father may have been 40 and its Mothers name i need matched to an address in Eltham Villas Vickers Rd in 1917.

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Harry Dennis looks a possibility will see how far i can research and cross check.I must thank everyone who are contributing to this inquiry hope I can put all your hard work into a positive outcome.Cheers Jim

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Jim,
Harry Smith married Kate Clarke in Nottingham 1892 from free bmd
Harry Smith birth registered Basford 1893 mmn Clarke, from GRO Index. Basford is the reg district for Beeston, where the Harry that Vicki found in Bedford 1911 census was born.

Harry was their only son because Frank, born Basford 1894 mmn Clarke died shortly after birth.
34 yr old Kate Smith died Nottingham 1902.
The birth cert for Harry in Basford would give his father occupation.
Dave

Thanks Dave looks promising.Cheers

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Harry Dennis Smith married Elizabeth Irons on 6th Aug 1906 at Mountsorrel Christ Church unfortunately it does not say anything else on the cd I have got.

The certificate is on FMP Harry Dennis Smith was a mechanic when he married Elizabeth Irons. His father was William Dennis Smith (deceased) a bricklayer. Elizabeth irons was 26 when she got married her father was Henry Irons. Both lived in Mountsorrel at the time.

Thanks to everyone who has helped in my Quest to find information on Harry Smith, I have managed to trace his movements to Lyttleton on the South Island of New Zealand. I have been in touch with
Local libraries and Archive sites but without much success there was a suggestion that he may have moved on to Australia.Thanks once again
Jim

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Hello once again to the good people who have helped me in my research to find my wifes Grandfather Harry Smith i would like to give an update on what i have found out since i was last on here :-
In 1921 Harry Smith left England for New Zealand and arrived there on 1/10/1921.
It was rumoured that he had died there just after arrival but there is no record of that.
In 1926 or 28 There is a passenger record from the
"Largs Bay" with Harry Vivian Smith an Engineer sailng to Hull via Brisbane and Southampton it gives his proposed return address as 32 Vickers Rd Sheffield this is his Fathers House.He gave a middle name of Vivian this is the 1st time I'd seen a middle name but it is his eldest sons name so must be right i think.Now he is back in England is there anyway I can track his movements and whereabouts.The ship Largs Bay arrived in Southampton on 31/7/26 or could be 28 as date stamp is unclear.
Many thanks to everyone who has helped so far.
Jim

Hello once again to you All, further to my last post I have more information on Harry Vivian Smith:-
After a short time back in England he acquired a job with
Spafford & Co of Sheffield as an overseas Rep and returned to New Zealand in late 1926, in 1931 he remarried in New Zealand but what i am trying to find out now is did he get Divorced from his 1st wife Vera Gladys Smith nee Bailey between
1921 and 1931.If someone could point me in the right direction on how to find out I would be very grateful.Jim

Jim
Can you tell us when, where and under what name Vera Gladys died please?
Dave

Another lead to check out-Vera Gladys Smith married Leslie g Field in 1935. According to a tree on Ancestry she died in Birmingham 1965.

Hello Thanks for replying to my query, Vera Gladys Smith remarried in Bimingham to Leslie Field in 1935 so became Vera Field .Harry Vivian Smith remarried in 1931 to
Ada Janet Aileen Pullar in New Zealand.Vera died in Birmingham in 1965 and Harry in 1973 in Dunedin New Zealand.

Jim
The only way they could have divorced in that period is on the grounds of adultery by one of them, and that would have to have been proven or admitted to the court. Therefore I would suggest that submission would have been made to the court in that short period of a few weeks that Harry was in Sheffield in late 1926. Most likely Harry will have admitted adultery, whether or not it was true.
To see how it worked after the Matrimonial Causes Act of 1923 you need to read the Wiki entry for A.P Herbert who as a private member created the Matrimonial Causes Act of 1937. A significant part of his case was a novel he published called Holy Deadlock in which the adultery admission usually by the man to avoid the embarrassment by the woman was routinely used
Dave

That's an interesting fact Dave T but if he did admit adultery would it be recorded somewhere that could be viewed.Jim

It looks like there may be records at the National Archives at Kew. I guess that means a visit when they reopen.
It may be worth making contact to establish exactly what they have.
Dave

Jim
What did Vera say was her condition when she married again?. There may be a clue there.
Either they divorced or they each committed the criminal offence of bigamy.
Dave

If Harry disappeared to NZ perhaps she had him declared dead after 7 years leaving her free to marry in 1935.

I think I'm going to have to get Vera's Marriages Certificate to Leslie Field to see if she stated divorced or Widowed because family stories always said he had died in New Zealand.If he had no contact with her for more than 7 years surely before she married again some proof of either her being a widow or divorced would have been required.

There would be no requirement for proof of what she declared at the marriage.
Dave

Is there anyway I can check on line ?

The Kew Archives website states categorically they do not have divorce records.
They say such records are kept by HM Courts and Tribunal Service and provides email addresses where you can request searches. A 10 yr search costs £45.