Hi,
Can anyone point in a direction to look for more information on this ancestor please?
Catherine Kelly born 25 October 1886. I have her birth cert.
She was baptised at St Vincents, on this site, gives her birth as 11 October 1886.
Her parents are Thomas Michael Kelly and Annie (nee Acaster). Thomas is a stonemason.
I couldn't find her for a long time after her birth but eventually tracked her to her great aunt and uncle.
In 1891 she is with Alfred and Mary Brookes, recorded as Kate Kelly niece aged 4.
In 1901 she is still with Alfred and Mary, recorded as Katherine Kelly aged 14.
I lost her again for quite a while but then recently found a marriage which I am pretty sure is her.
Catherine/Katherine Kelly (the C/K has been altered) 21 father Thomas Kelly, Stonemason
Married 30 May 1909 at St Bartholomew, Sheffield
Joseph Sydney Watson 21 Soldier father William Watson (deceased), Forgeman
In 1911 she is boarding, recorded as Kate Watson, married aged 23. On the original copy, under birthplace, although it is crossed out I'm sure it says Broad Lane and I know the Kelly family were living there for a while in 1895. (Theres more writing crossed out but I can't make it out)
None of the other residents are familiar or link to her that I can find.
Then my trail goes cold again. I can't pin down Joseph Sydney in any way, I can't find a birth or census that matches to his name and his father, I can't find anything definite around military, I don't think they had any children and I can't find a death that is close enough for either, to send for a certificate.
Any ideas where else I could look?
Many thanks,
Claire

Claire, the other words crossed out on the 1911 census are "British subject parentage".
It is the same for all four members of the household.
Dave

Thanks for that Dave. I was scrutinising it for ages in case it gave me another clue, but couldn’t work it out. I haven’t come across it before, so good to know. Although her dad Thomas Kelly was from Ireland, but I know these documents aren’t always accurate.
Thanks again,
Claire

Gro index has Joseph Sidney Watson born 1888 Penrith.mmn Ivison
He is on the 1891 census with his family in Penrith and his father is William, stonemaons labourer.
Dave

She remarried in 1922 - Catherine Kelly, 36, widow, daughter of Thomas Kelly, stonemason, married John Rowe, 43, labourer, a bachelor, son of William Rowe. They both gave the same addresses (which I can't quite read). Poor old Joseph Sydney Watson must have dropped off the twig - maybe a victim of WW1?

Penrith Observer -29 July 1919 - a memorial stone in Penrith St Andrews Church - dedicated to the local lads who lost their lives in the Great War. Joseph S Watson is one of them - could this be your Joseph?

Some brilliant finds, thank you so much. This lady has been so hard to track, for many years I thought she must have died as a youngster.
The second marriage I hadn’t thought of with not knowing anymore about Joseph Sydney, that gives me lots more information to work with. The witness AA Firth is Catherine’s cousin who was also raised by the Brookes, so it all ties in nicely.
I had only found a Joseph Sydney born 1884 but dad not William, so that’s great to know where he is from now. Any thoughts why he would be in Sheffield as a soldier? Training maybe.
Susan, that is most likely him, I don’t suppose it says which regiment he was with by any chance?
Many thanks again everyone.
Claire

I’ve just found a Joseph Watson residence owlerton Sheffield, birth place Penrith who died 29 October 1914, France & Flanders. Says Border Regiment. This could possible be my guy, fits with what you have all found for me. Going to try more searches now, thanks again everyone.
Claire

Claire, From CWGC. Private S Watson died 29 Oct 1914. 2nd Battalion Border Reg No 7783.Buried Ypres Town Cemetery Extension.
Sadly there is no mention of any mourning relative in the record.
His Medal Card shows he landed in the war zone on 5th Oct 1914.He was awarded the 14 Star.
Dave

Joseph Watson was admitted to the hospital with a gun shot wound to the abdomen.

Joseph Sidney might be featured on two war memorials - the one in Penrith found by Susan Winter, and one in Owlerton as well (https://www.sheffieldsoldierww1.co.uk/), which says that he was in the Border Regiment (as already found out by Dave T).

Catherine Rowe, wife of John Rowe, shows up in the burial records on this site - quite possibly your Catherine/Katherine/Kate.

There used to be a lot of soldiers in the Hillsborough Barracks, which was huge, The Border regiment must have been here in 1909 because they show up in the press quite a bit - e.g. the Telegraph for Monday 13 December 1909 mentions a footie match of Handsworth v. officers of the 2nd Border Regiment (Border Regiment 4, Handsworth 3).

Cheers,

Andrew P.

It looks like he was probably wounded on 26th Oct at the Battle of Bassee, a defensive action against German aggression. The 2nd Battalion Border Regiment lost 83 dead on that day.
Dave

Hi,
Thank you John and Dave, I had found some of this info using what I’d found earlier but good to know I’m looking in the right places. I might get a months subscription to Ancestry to see if there’s any more to uncover.
I love that info on the football match Andrew. I’ll see if I can print that article when I can get to the local studies as Joseph was in the second battalion so might well have played. Thank you for the information on the second memorial, that’s interesting.
I agree, that burial looks like my Catherine, the age fits. I will send for death certificate to confirm. Her second marriage is on here too.
I have found John on the 1939 register. Don’t think I mentioned that Catherine is my grandmas sister. In 1939 John is living with my auntie and uncle. I will have seen him on there a while back but had no clue who he was.
Thank you everyone.
Claire

Claire, there is a document on Ancestry of Soldiers Effects. It says that Joseph Sidney had next of kin Kate Watson his widow. However it also states that he left a will and the sole legatee was a Mary Jane Franklin. She got the £7-9-6d due to him, and Kate got nothing. Also there is a free to view online list of all Cumberland casualties in the great war, in the Cumberland news, and that gives his address as Askham in Furness.
It looks like he and Kate were estranged.
Dave
Edit the effects doc gives his enlistment date as August 1904, so he was only 16.

Hi Dave,
Thank you for this. I did see that on my guest membership but unable to see the details. That’s a great piece of information as it confirms he’s the right guy. Haven’t a clue who Mary Jane is. Does it say when the will was made?
I found the free to view info on Cumbria casualties too, thank you. Why do you think his residence would be Askham in Furness on there and Owlerton on the other document. Would his papers just have been updated at some point?
I think I’ve found him on a 1911 census at Headley, Alton, Hampshire.
Must be an army base as all are soldiers and says he’s a private, 2nd battalion border regiment from Penrith, but says he’s single! Maybe the writing was already on the wall, just 2 years into the marriage.
Claire

Claire, I think you can safely assume that the will would have been written just before embarking for the war zone on 5th October 1914. Incidentally that date on his Medal Card is embarkation date. The Battalion arrived in Zeebrugge on the 6th.
Dave

Hi,
Just an update, I was searching for more info on Mary Jane Franklin (who Joseph had named as beneficiary in his will - not his wife Catherine) and found a school register from 1892 giving her year of birth as 1888 and living in Askam in Furness, both ties in with information Dave found earlier. A few more searches and I found a marriage for Mary J Franklin to Joseph S Watson, DQ 1912 West Ward, Westmorland. It appears Joseph was a bigamist!!
Thank you for all your searches and locating such varied information. Catherine’s life was more complex than I ever could have imagined.
Claire

Its a pity the marrige certificate was not on line as it would be interested to see what it said regarding "condition" on the other hand are you sure it is the same Joseph?

What if there are TWO Joseph Steven Watsons who had different fathers but the two fathers were brothers.

Claire, one small detail on Joseph that you may want to follow up on.
The link below gives details of the army recruitment in 1904 in England.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gKTPDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=army+service+12+years+1904+statesman's+year+book&source=bl&ots=M5j9eL5U6f&sig=ACfU3U2MKKkOlBhvJg_6Ti-325TyPDcS1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjw_LPvvpjqAhXIgVwKHUXtCC0Q6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=army%20service%2012%20years%201904%20statesman's%20year%20book&f=false

We know Joseph Sidney did at least 7 years with the colours (1904 to 1911) but just possibly he was in the reserve when he married Mary Jane in that very remote place of Askham in Furness (the edge of nowhere and 100 miles from his Regimental HQ at Carlisle Castle). If he was then in the reserve he would probably show up on the certificate as a civilian occupation.
Either way the secret of his bigamy was pretty safe.
Dave

just a thought could kate have committed bigamy too?

Hi,
John I would much prefer it not to be a bigamist marriage if I’m honest. I am looking into extended family members but nothing supports your theory of two different men or that Mary Jane or Kate had a second unlawful marriage, but I will keep looking.
Dave that is an interesting thought, it’s a shame so many war records were destroyed. His papers would answer a few more questions now.
Anyway I have ordered the marriage certificate today, I imagine they have a back log so will take a while to come but I’ll let you know what it says.
Thank you again to everyone, for your help and insight.
Claire

If we have the correct Joseph Sidney Watson showing on the memorial death 1914 then Kate wouldnt have been married as a bigamist because she remarried in 1922

Hi,
I received the marriage cert for Joseph Sydney Watson and Mary Jane Franklin. Joseph states he is a bachelor and a farm labourer. Father is William Watson deceased but his profession is coachman when it was forgeman before.
Interestingly Mary Jane is a widow. Fathers name is Thomas Bowness, so I’ve looked into this and she married a Alfred Franklin in 1907 in Watford. No certificate on FMP. Mary Jane is widowed by 1911 when she is living with her dad and family, plus her 2 children. There are too many deaths for an Alfred Franklin to pin it down.
I still think it likely Joseph Sydney was a bigamist. Maybe Mary Jane was a childhood sweetheart that got away and then he saw a chance when her husband died and just ignored the fact that he was already married to my great aunt.
Claire

When Mary was a widow in 1911, was she living in Watford or Sheffield please?

Claire, something is not quite right here.
How old was Alfred Franklin when he married Mary Jane please. According to GRO index there are only 2 possible deaths for him, one in Buckingham and one in London and the age may sort it out.
Dave
Edit, correction the one in Buckingham was under one year old.
The two possible are both in london, and one of them could not have been the father of her second child

Hi John, She is Great Strickland, Penrith, Westmorland(where she married Joseph Sydney) with her parents and sibling, as well s her two young children. Her second child was born here but the first in Watford where she married Alfred.
Claire

Dave, the youngest child was born Mar q 1910 in West Ward RD Cumberland.

There is a death for an Alfred Franklin aged 27 Jun Q 1910 at Pancras RD so is this the death we are looking for?

Sorry Dave, I missed your message. The marriage Alfred Franklin and Mary Jane Bowness is on FMP after all, I hadn't looked properly.
5 June 1907 Alfred Franklin 25 Bachelor Bricklayer father William Franklin Bricklayer
Mary Jane Bowness 27 Spinster father Thomas Bowness Labourer.
Address for both is 71 Copsewood Road. This should be Copeswood Road as it is the family home of the Franklins where Alfred is in 1901.
I saw the London deaths too which threw me. I wondered if he was an army man but I couldn't find anything.
Claire

The birth registration for the second child was in the first half of January 1910. The death of Alfred in St Pancras, who was of the right age, was towards the end of April 1910. Presumably he became ill, or an accident towards the end of 1909 and the very pregnant Mary Jane went back home to Westmoreland because of her young child and imminent next one.
Is there anything in newspapers in London in 1909?
Dave

Hi Dave,
My FMP subscription doesn't extend to newspapers I'm afraid.
I wonder if someone else could check for me please?
Many thanks,
Claire

Hi Claire,

How about purchasing that death cert. If it is your chap it will probably answer some of your questions. I believe the PDF form is about seven pounds.

Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Claire, the more I look at it the more unlikely my story is. There were plenty of other Alfred Franklin's born in london at the right time. Yours was born in Leighton Buzzard just a few miles north of Watford.
The army suggestion is unlikely because he was 25 in 1907 and a bricklayer. Unlikely to join the army at that age.
There is no other death anywhere in England and Wales.
I wonder if they both moved to Westmoreland after the birth of the first. It is very close to the Scottish border. Could he have died in Scotland?
Sorry, no more ideas.
Dave

I have been looking at Franklin’s in the London area and I agree the St Pancras death is a long shot, I think that death is more likely an Alfred Franklin from London.
I am grateful for everyone’s help in unravelling this complex story, the will info from Dave was really helpful in linking it all together. I will continue to chip away at the story.
Many thanks everyone,
Claire