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help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Looking for evidence of a marriage for Benjamin Jones to Eliza(beth) Evans, both from Wales who end up in Stockton on Tees. She is the daughter of William Evans and Mary Price (others have it as Mary Morgan but a marriage shows Price). No idea who the parents of Benjamin are.
Benjamin and Eliza are both clearly listed in the 1891 census as him being a widower, and her as sister-in-law and single. Yet the youngest child named Christopher Jones born 1890 in Stockton shows his parents as Eliza Jones formerly Evans, and Benjamin Jones on his birth certificate (which was ordered by his great granddaughter).
Benjamin dies a year later in 1892 and Eliza marries Samuel Breeze a few years later, and then she dies in 1902. Christopher ends up being sent to Canada through Barnardo Homes. His grandson (and his daughter), I match to by DNA!! I also DNA match to a descendant of Eliza's brother Edward. So my connection must be through the Evans line.
**from a previous thread of mine regarding Mary Ann Parker and my grandpa (her son), this could be a big piece of my puzzle!!
I can not help but wonder why the 1891 census does not have them listed as husband and wife. They are listed in 1881 living with her mother and she is listed as married as is he, and her last name shows as Jones, but 10 years later she is listed as Evans and single and him as widower. I just don't get it. :confused:
Any tidbits of help appreciated. Thanks for reading.

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Dawn,

Oh what a tangled web we weave........

The 1891 census states that Eliza is a sister in law. Single and aged 38 born South Wales.
Living in Stockton on Tees Durham.

At face value for what its worth could Eliza have had a sister who was the mother of the children and of course the GRO MMN would be Evans.

Do you have Christopher's birth certificate with the mothers full name?

On the 1901 census when Eliza is married to Samuel Breeze they also have her mother living with them. Mary Evans aged 74 born Mertha Tid Vill.

On Ancestry there is a marriage of a Benjamin Jones & ELIZABETH Jones St Asaph, Denbighshire Wales. 11b 463. March qtr 1872. St Asaph seems to come up quite often.

Mary the first child was born in Stockton and registered Sep qtr 1882 10a 80.

That is a 10 year gap from a marriage to Elizabeth and Marys birth which throws up all sorts of questions. One being were they actually married.

Just a few ideas. I would say the Ruabon???? Denbighshire needs more research.

Elaine in Ottawa

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Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Dawn

You dont give any possible dates for a marriage (or where in Wales they are from), but if you search on FreeBMD for Benjamin Jones/Eliza Evans marriages it brings up 3 between 1866 -1890. You might be able to narrow it down with any dates/places you know.

Denise

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hello Elaine

Yes, the birth certificate for Christopher shows mother being Eliza Jones, formerly Evans. Father listed as Benjamin Jones. Just was finding no evidence they ever married each other. Only reason I was wanting to confirm their marriage is because they list as married in 1881 census living with her mother and then in 1891, he is a widower and she is his single sister-in-law in his own household. Just odd. The only sister I know she had was Mary who went on to marry and have a family.

Thanks so much Elaine. I'll keep digging!

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Denise. I'd have added more info if I had it. No idea where in Wales they were from exactly, and no idea when they may have married, if in fact they did. I shall check the 3 possible ones you mentioned on the FreeBMD. Thanks!

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Morning Dawn,

I had looked at two or three different census to try and make out the place in Wales they were from. However it was hard to read but definitely Denbighshire.

If you look at Family search which I also looked at you may find more info there. Think thats where i came up with St Asaph. I would say Ruabon???? Denbighshire from the census.

So a good map of Wales is called for.

Elaine in Ottawa.

1891 census has both Benjamin and a daughter "C" Cassy born in the same place so a clue there.

I believe Benjamin has a sister "Caroline" = Cassy? and then he called a daughter after her? 1901 census.

The 1881 census I believe I found him as an Ag Lab but wouldn't swear thats the correct chap.

Elaine.

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Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

daft as it may seem but have you ruled out the Wales which is in South Yorkshire but could have once been in Derbyshire ie the Wales situated near Kiveton Park and near the M1 motorway as is now

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Good day Elaine

Benjamin appears to be living with Eliza at her mother's place along her siblings in 1881, in Stockton. Both say married and she is carrying Benjamin's last name of Jones. So not right chap that was Ag Lab in 1881 you seen. I believe Ruabon???? Denbighshire needs to be looked at more for sure. As for the Wales or Sheffield area, I am not familiar with at all and maps are a must. I do see back then, people could and did move about quite the distances.
I've never used GRO but I think getting birth record for at least the oldest child may help answer whether they may all be Eliza's children or not. Hoping not overly expensive as I have other certificates I'd like to look at getting (on Mary Ann Parker).
Thanks again to all who are digging into this for me!!

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi John S.
Nothing in my searches have been a daft thought because I haven't much to work from. All thoughts are welcome. I am not familiar with the areas over there and not even sure of distance from one area to the next, but I will be pulling out the maps to see the locations mentioned in the census for them. Thanks!

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi John.

No suggestion is "Daft"...... but unfortunately the 1891 census have Benjamin Jones & Eliza Jones as being born in "Rivabou"? Denbighshire "South Wales" Debighshire I believe is North Wales.

Samuel Breeze in 1901 was born Abervale( Ebbw Vale) Wales. THats South Wales.

Both Census they were living in Stockton on Tees so Census info could have been confusing to them.

I looked at St Asaph... (Asaff) and thats in the northern part of Denbighshire.

THats me offering my two cents worth.

Elaine in Ottawa.

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Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi,

****
I believe it was the 1871 census not the 1881 census where I found him as an Ag Lab.

You can buy the info from the GRO as a PDF File much cheaper.

If you need help finding you way through the GRO to order dont be afraid to ask.

I still think you need to get in touch with one of the Welsh Mailing List and ask for help there. Have all the facts at hand and I am sure someone who knows the area will offer help and suggestions. I will look for a Mailing List and get back to you. Elaine.

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Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Dawn.

This site might give you a better understanding of the area you need to research more.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN

Genuki covers many counties in England & Wales.

The one I had used in the past was a Rootsweb Mailing List but the site looks to have run into problems and they are having to reload their pages. So leave that one alone.

There are probably others if you start Googling.

Have fun... Elaine in Ottawa..... so very aware of how difficult it is to research from a great distance.

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Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Thanks Elaine. Will check out some Wales groups for this and check out GRO this weekend. Will update here if I find something of interest or any local queries. Research from a distance certainly is a challenge but very thankful for good people like those here. If I were in Sheffield, I'd be spending a ton of time at the Archives looking at the guardian minute books! That is where I may find my Parker answers.

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Dawn et al
Moira and I have looked at this problem by following the EVANS family details using a combination of censuses, gro index and Free BMD to cross check a few facts in order to explain any inconsistencies.
William Evans married Mary Price in Merthyr Tydfil (S Wales) in 1848. They moved around quite a bit and had the following children. Both were apparently born in Llantrythid (Sw of Cardiff) if we believe 1861 census or Merthyr Tydfil if we believe 1871 census
Eliza(beth) in 1850 in Cwmafen (S Wales) Neath Reg District
Mary in 1852 in Newbridge (S. Wales) Caerphilly Reg District
Edward 1854 back in Cwmafen
David 1863 in Darlington on Teesside
Ann in 1865 in Middlesbrough (reg district Stockton, Teesside)
Thomas in 1870 in Stockton, Teesside
All these children check out in the censuses and in the GRO index (MMN Price), once you realise the Reg districts.
There is another child in the family in 1871 and 1881. She is (Ce)cilia born 1870 and said in 1871 to be granddaughter and in 1881 to be daughter. Cannot find a birth reg for her, but she must be granddaughter, and is probably the illegitimate child of Eliza(beth). She marries in Stockton in 1889.
It may be interesting to see if she named a father on the marriage cert.
In 1881 there is also a Benjamin Jones , son in law, born Wales, and Eliza is said to be married and called Jones. It is likely that the census enumerator got the info from Mary Evans, mother of Elizabeth.
The Evans family have been in Teesside for more than 20 years. If there was a marriage it would surely have been in Teesside. There is no such marriage to be found.
So far it is all sensible and cross checks, with the exceptions of no birth reg for Celia and no marriage reg for Benjamin and Elizabeth.
Then comes a very strange situation in 1891, still in Stockton. Benjamin and Eliza’s ages are 4 years out, Benjamin is a Widower and Eliza is back to Evans and is his sister in law. There are 4 Jones children
Mary 8 born Stockton
William 6 born Stockton
C Jones (dau) 2 born Ruabon Denbighshire (Reg District Wrexham)
Christopher 11 months born Stockton
These 4 births all check out on GRO index, mmn Evans, (if we assume the Ruabon birth was Catherine).
Benjamin is said to be from Ruabon
The fact that Elizabeth should be Evans we believe to be correct (no marriage). If Benjamin was a widower in 1881, perhaps he married in the mid 1860s, left his wife and got together with Elizabeth Evans, in the late 1870s or very early 1880s.Their first surviving child was in 1882, but there are several Jones- Evans births in Stockton in the period 1872 to 1880 that died young, Unfortunately Jones and Evans are very common names and it is clear there were at least 2 other similarly named families having children in that period in Stockton so you would need to purchase several birth certs to identify whether Benjamin and Eliza were together in the 1870s. They could not marry because that would be bigamy and a criminal offence. His wife may have died at any time between 1881 and 1890. It is likely that the census enumerator spoke in 1891 to Elizabeth (presumably illiterate) rather than Benjamin.
Why were they in Ruabon, his home town, in 1889?
Dave

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Wow. That was some heavy research on your part Dave and I truly do appreciate it. Saves me from thinking of ordering/spending for many certificates.
I too believe Cecilia is most likely Eliza's first child (illegitimate).
You are so right about it getting very strange in the 1891 census as to their stated marital status. If proof wasn't required to the enumerator, why bother changing it from previous census. Very odd.
As for any other children before the eldest child (or after even), I would certainly think a son would be named after Benjamin since it was so common to do back then. Possibly one died young.
Catherine/Cassy, her birth was registered in Stockton I believe, at least someone from Ancestry message had noted this.
Thanks for clue on where Mary Price and William Evans were likely from.

Again... thank you kindly!!

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Dawn,

I might be interesting to see Benjamin's death certificate.
If Eliza registered the death, did she put that she was his wife
or his Sister-in Law?

Moira.

Re: help please in finding Evans and Jones marriage

Hi Moira. I shall see if one of the family members has the death certificate. Thanks!