HiI have a photo of a family wedding with St Mary's Church [St Marys Gate] in the background.Its a group of 5.Its probably taken sometime in the 1920's.Two of the women in the photo are my husbands Aunt Irene Patricia Grove and his Grandmother Jean/Jane Grove.I have no idea who the Bride and Groom are,but I think they may be family.If so the other name could be Jean's maiden name Naylor.She had many siblings.
I think one or both of the Grove may be witness to the marriage but is there any way to search for the marriage through witness's
Thank you
Audrey

Audrey,
according to FMP, at St Mary Bramhall Lane between 1920 and 1930 there were no Grove marriages. There were only 4 Naylor marriages. They were
Alice Naylor 1923
George Cresswell Naylor 1920
George Uttley Naylor 1928
Nellie Naylor 1930.

It would be worth looking at those 4 marriages to see if there is a witness called Grove. Sorry I do not have subs.
Dave

Hi Audrey,

There is No St Mary's Gate Church in Sheffield.

St Mary's Bramall Lane,

St Mary's Walkley and


St Mary's at Ecclesfield.

When I Google St Mary's Gate Sheffield its a new hotel that comes up in the center of town.

There is also St Maries the RC Cathedral.

As Dave has mentioned there is NO Irene or Jean Grove married in Sheffield between 1920-30.

Might I suggest the following for you.

FreeBMD lists all the Births Marriages & deaths from 1837.

I would stick with your husbands line and research from his parents to who his grandparents were. When they were born and where they lived. Both the ladies you mentioned would have been born by the last census we have for 1911.

Thats a start if you find it confusing feel free to come back to us.

Elaine in Ottawa.

PS.

I must admit when I first saw you posting. I wondered if the City of York was involved.
Looking at the 1911 census when they were in Harrogate I notice that Jean Elizabeth Grove was born in Fulford.Nr York. She is the wife of Arthur Grove a Tailors Assistant and Book keeper he was from Clerkenwell in Middx.
IRene Patricia aged 6 (Dec reg 1905) and two othere daughters Elsie 3yrs and Ethel 9mths.

Arthur Grove & Jean Elizabeth Naylor were married in York June qtr 1903. 9d 85.

There is a Irene P Grove married to a Norman Marsden in Sheffield Dec 1948.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Audrey, you say there are 5 people on the photograph, your husband's grandmother, his aunt, the bride, and the groom. What about the 5th person?
Male or female and about what age relative to Jane Grove please?
Dave

Hi Elaine
The information you gave re York connection is correct.I dont know when they all came to Sheffield.Edith Grove [Deceased] was my mother-in- law.I just thought Jean and Irene might have been witnesses to the wedding.It was unusual in this era to have any guests other than family and it looks as though Jean was possibly maid of honour.She is holding a bouquet of flowers and is next to the bride.
Thank you for your input
Audrey

Hi Dave
The 5th person is male.He could have been Irene's boyfriend but certainly not her husband.She was born Harrogate 1901 and married in Sheffield 1948.
Its just the Bride and Groom thats the puzzle,I feel sure there's a family connection somewhere.
Another photo shows the same family group outside what looks like an older council house possibly Southey Green,this is the area where Jean died 1933.
Thank you
Audrey

Audrey, this second photo, is it taken on the same day as the other one.?
Would you mind sending copies to me, email below
Dave

Hi Audrey et al,

This may not be significant but there is a later marriage at St.Silas Gilcar/Sheffield under Parish Records on this site.

ELSIE AMY GROVE
married April 10/1935
EDWARD ROGERSON

Witnesses: WALTER ROBINSON AND IRENE GROVE

Not the same place or the the right time period but may be useful

HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

And also in marriages over to the left
Mary Grove, father Arthur, tailor, married to Buxton Aug 15 1931 St John Owlerton, witnesses Edward Rogerson and Jean Elizabeth Grove.
Could that be your photo and you have the wrong church?
Dave

Hi Audrey,

If you re read my first message you will note that Irene was born in 1905 in Harrogate and she was baptised at St Lukes Harrogate.Her parents were married 1903. All this you can check on FreeBMD. and yes it is FRee. From Ancestry it looks as if Arthur was married previously back in 1875 in Brighton aged 26.

We know from the 1911 census that Arthur (61) and Jean (37) were still in Harrogate.
Ethel was 9mths old. Did she go to school in Sheffield????

I think there is a TREE on Ancestry for this family. Someone in Australia. Its private so doesn't give me much to go on.

Under our burials over to the left.......there doesn't seem to be anyone else in the grave with her.


GROVE, Jane Elizabeth (Widow, age 58).
Died at 67 Crowder Avenue; Buried on February 15, 1933 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 7578, Section G of Shiregreen Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: ~.

Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Hi Dave
This marriage at Owlerton is not the one in the photo.I'm trying to send you it as an attachment but not very good with transfering images.
Mary Grove was my Mother in law.She was christened Ethel Mary but was always known as Mary,similarly Irene Patricia her sister was always known as Patsie,their other sister Amy Elsie went by her second name Elsie,she was the one married at St Silas Church.
Their mother was christened Jane but flitted between Jane and Jean,they didnt make things easy did they!
The father Arthur Grove was 20 years older than Jane/Jean.I knew he was married previously but there were no children to this marriage.
Will have another go at attaching the photos
Thank you
Audrey

Hi all
below is a link to Audrey's photo.I have to say it is not what I had imagined.
I am not convinced that the background church is St Mary Bramall Lane. Too many "spires" and too few clock faces.
Audrey identifies the woman at left as Jane Elizabeth Grove nee Naylor (1875-1931) and the young woman second from right as her daughter Irene Patricia Grove (b 1905, married 1948. The other 3 people are the unknowns.
Jane Elizabeth's husband Arthur died Sheffield 1925 and was 20 years older than her. They had 2 other daughters Edith Mary (b 1910, married 1931 Owlerton) and Elsie Amy (b1907 married 1935 St Silas).
We know that the Grove family was in Knaresborough 1911 and were in Sheffield by 1924 (see this thread and previous threads from Audrey)
Dave
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i8n9w5yuelq8opn/IMG_20191014_0003_NEW.pdf?dl=0

Hi Dave
Taking on board what you've said about the Church,maybe its the Church at Ecclesfield.I'm no expert on Sheffield Churches but most seem to have spires rather than towers.
I went for St Marys Bramall Lane as the family in the early 20's lived this area but Jean at some stage moved to Southey Green which is nearer to Ecclesfield Church [?St Mary's] and does have a tower.
Audrey

Audrey,

Have a look at these more recent photo's of St Mary's Ecclesfield.

https://www.google.ca/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x487979a3b0dadac3%3A0xe4016094a8b4003f!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipP8s4drzulwvBnCU0ftag_yJyg6X7kdmGGuMorZ%3Dw213-h160-k-no!5sEcclesfield%20Parish%20Church%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipP8s4drzulwvBnCU0ftag_yJyg6X7kdmGGuMorZ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9rZjq757lAhWQu54KHfjpAeoQoiowDHoECAwQBg

I only have a vague memory of Ecclesfield Parish Church and when I compare it to your photo I dont think they are one and the same.

Lots of Naylors in their registers..... BUT the index I have only goes to the about 1904.

Looking at the hats of the Bride I would says thats a 1920's + style.
I think its a city wedding. I had also wondered if it was a registry office wedding and its the town hall in the background. Clock Tower??? I may be totally wrong must turn up a picture of the town hall. Did St Pauls have a clock tower????? It was pulled down in 1937 I believe. A bit before my time.

Elaine. in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Audrey, I put my Spires in inverted commas because I did no know what else to call them. I meant the spiky bits standing on top of the tower. St Mary Brammall Lane has 4. The church on the photo has 5 visible but from the angle of viewing it is clear that one is concealed behind another, so there are 6. , possibly 8 if others are hidden by the perspective. Also Brammall lane has a clock face on each side. I see only one on the photo., even though two faces of the tower are clearly visible. Better fit is Ecclesfield.
Could this be a funeral rather than a wedding?.
I assume the photo is amateur, so whose relative or friend is behind the lens?, and where are Jane's 2 younger daughters?
Dave

Dave & Audrey,

I still think St Mary's Bramall Lane is a better fit.

https://www.google.ca/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x487982864402bc37%3A0x40865f3b03d8ea0f!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPdRF0IEM9wksQvnaxALfm07BQXbuU_U-PFvhl6%3Dw300-h200-k-no!5sst%20mary%27s%20bramall%20lane%20sheffield%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipPdRF0IEM9wksQvnaxALfm07BQXbuU_U-PFvhl6&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEkeWrlp_lAhXxTRUIHcCqA3cQoiowE3oECAwQBg

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Dave have a look at St Philips Church.

St Mary's & St Philips were part of the Million Act Churches The building was demolished in 1951. Looks as if they used the same drawings for both churches.

Just a little way from Shiregreen.

Audrey I dont know if any of this is going to help.
Maybe approaching from another angle might bear fruit.

Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

St Philip looks almost identical to Bramall lane, ie only four spikes on the top and with clocks on all 4 faces. The church in the photograph has at least 6 spikes, possibly 8, and it has a clock on only one face.
I think it is more likely that this was a funeral rather than a wedding
Dave

Audrey, Take close look at the man on the right with the book. He is wearing a dog collar.
Look at the eyes of three people on the right, all looking down. I believe they are standing at a grave, and the man on the right is doing the committal.
I now have your second photo of the same group elsewhere apparently on the same day. I believe they are behind a hearse..
I shall put the link below
Dave

Here is the link to the second photo

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1mzrj89gkdu8e9b/Grove.png?dl=0

Audrey, and Elaine
It seems that St Marys Brammall lane was damaged by bombing in the Sheffield Blitz and later restored. Therefore perhaps in the 1920s it had more of those spikes on the top than it has now, and perhaps it had only one clockface. That brings it back into contention.
I believe i see gravestones on the right edge of the photo behind the vicars back.
The position of the group relative to the background church is that it is due almost exactly southwest of the church (the tower must be at the west end of the church).
If it is St Mary Brammall Lane then the group must be in General Cemetery at Sharrow.
I suggest it was the funeral of Arthur Grove on 29th March 1924 and that you should be looking for a sister of Arthur as the older woman, and perhaps her son as the other stranger. Perhaps you could find the grave of Arthur to see if it is close to a building like that in the photo.
Dave

Hi Dave and Elaine
Thank you for all the input.I think you are right Dave that it is a funeral.A good piece of lateral thinking.I too thought it might be Arthurs funeral but he died 25th March 1924 at 16 Hanover Square.Jean died 10 February 1933 at 67 Crowder Ave,which I think is where the non church photo is taken.It may even be the house where the unknown couple lived.
Jean is still at Hanover Square in the 1925 Kelleys
Jean is buried in Shiregreen Cemetery.I cant find where Arthur is buried.
Now you've suggested a funeral it fits in with everyone including the "groom" carrying flowers and directly behind the vicar below the gravestone,there is what looks like a hearst
It alters everything if this is the case because weddings at this period tended to be family,anyone and everyone could go to burials.
Thank you all very much for your help
Audrey

Audrey, I do not believe that either of Male is holding flowers. What you can see is the fingers of the old lady who is linking him.
There is a good chance that Arthur's sister Alice Victoria would travel from her presumably distant home to her brother's funeral. There were six days between his death and burial. At her age of 66 she would want someone to accompany her, I would guess her son. Worthy of follow up.
With regard to the burial, it was at General Cemetery Sharrow 29 March 1924 as reported by Ann in your earlier thread on Arthur Grove. I assume someone on here will look that up and give you grave number and section. You can then use the General Cemetery plan under burials over to the left to find and possibly visit the grave.
Dave

Dave & Audrey,

The family photo I am sure is in front of a corporation house

What ever is behind them has a teapot on the top so I dont think its a hearse. Initials G or H/ R. I remember a Tea Salesman would go house to house but I think that was Liptons.

The other photo with the minister could be that they were leaving the funeral home or house? and he was giving a blessing.That would be prior to the burial hence the flowers.

My General Cemetery Index does not go as far as 1924. You will have to contact the General Cemetery for that info. By finding that out you would have a home address enabling you to maybe pin point that church.

Arthur Grove Death March qtr 1924 EB 9c 586. Aged 74.

On the old General Cemetery maps there is a mortuary there, we could be looking at the Chapel (Anglican) that is there. Its on Cemetery Road. Just found a photo and it has a spire not a tower. So not that.

Elaine in Ottawa.

PS Christ Church Pitsmoor also has a Tower.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Hi Audrey et al,

My take on this pic is along the same line as Elaine's, that it was probably a registry wedding with a cleric present and a couple of witnesses.
The bride & Groom appear to be an older couple, probably in their early forties. The bride has white flowers, Jean/Jane's flowers are dark in colour and Irene's flowers will remain a secret as we can only see the stems.
The groom is holding his hat and a pair of gloves.
The groom looks very much like Jean/Jane in facial features, possibly a younger brother..?? Ergo possibly a Naylor..??


In the 2nd pic, the small party of people appear to be at a tea room for a mini-reception and have accumulated one more male into the mix.

I am skeptical about it being a funeral as it is not very common to take photos at such events.

There is a photo on Genuki website of St.Mary's(not sure which one)in Sheffield, taken by a Colin Hinson, that has the long narrow clock tower, it only has four pinnacles and the side view shows more than one clock face. However, the angle of the church shown in Audrey's pic is quite blurred to determine how many clock faces there are. the discrepancy in pinnacles could be an additional lightning rod.
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Hi Wendy and Elaine
I have to accept the criticism about the hearse and the second photo. Yes, you are correct it is a tea room (refreshment house) and presumably they were there just before or just after the event.
I have checked the Directories on the left for refreshment rooms in 1925. There are plenty of them ,but when I add proprietor Gra* (I believe I can see that the next letter is E, F or jut possibly T), there is only one answer: William Grafton and the address is Endcliffe Park SHARROW, so that places the group in Sharrow So both pictures can be placed in Sharrow on that day.

I am trained in photo forensics. I have made measurements around the church tower. It is a square tower and there are clearly three corner pinnacles visible. Two other pinnacles are clearly visible and neither is on a corner (I have measured them, they are a long way from the corners). The angle of viewing of the tower is just under 45 degrees ( I have measured it), which by definition means that the fourth corner pinnacle is hidden behind the front corner one as we view. Therefore I can state that it is a simple fact that there are at least 6 pinnacles on that church at the time the picture was taken.
Also, based on the published height of several of the churches around Sheffield, including St Mary Brammal Lane, I have estimated the church at one mile distant. Based upon the measured angle of the view and knowing that the Tower must be at the West end, then I have estimated that the photo was taken about a mile from the church in a direction slightly north of South West. If the church is St Mary Brammal then the picture is taken in Sharrow.
Dave
PS Wendy, thanks for the perfect word pinnacle, I knew there was a correct word but could not think of it.

Dave

Audrey et al
I believe I have finally solved the mystery of the extra pinnacles. My initial instinct was correct. The background church is not St Mary Bramall Lane; it is St George Portobello. I previously said said IF it was Bramall lane I could place the photo in Sharrow. Now I know it is St George Portobello I place it differently.
The link at the bottom of this message takes you to a picture of the church (the building is still there). That picture is taken from an angle which (just) shows that there are actually 8 pinnacles. If you move slightly right to view it from a different angle you will see that 3 of the pinnacles will disappear behind 3 others, giving the same skyline as the one in your photo. In fact that angle where they completely disappear is exactly 45 degrees so we can say that your picture is viewing it from close to southwest. In fact judging by the slight asymmetry of the pinnacles 2 and 4 on your photo we can say slightly south of south west.
That is far more accurate than I got before by measuring the blurry sides on the photo.
So the picture is taken from slightly south of south west from St George’s Portobello. That line goes right through the Hanover Square area which was Jane and Arthur’s home when he died March 23 1924. So the group with flowers and a vicar is Hanover Square area, outside a house. I note that Jane does not have a coat on (yet) so presumably it is her home and she is about to go inside to put it on.
So before the event they have flowers, leaving home at Hanover square. After the event, flowers are gone and they take refreshment in an establishment very close to the General Cemetery where Arthur was buried. The date was Saturday 29th March 1924.
Could Elsie Amy have taken the pictures?
There are a couple of photos on Picture Sheffield taken from the Hanover Street area looking north east which show the church in the background. They are not very clear, but they do add evidence.
Dave

https://www.google.com/search?q=st+george%27s+church+portobello&client=firefox-b-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=_DUnhf451ozyBM%253A%252CQOf836TabkZ3pM%252C%252Fm%252F0bf6lk&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kS7VftoV4vTOO-pVVwi37VwFuzvbQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjksay_2qPlAhXdQkEAHdq3DfgQ_B0wCnoECAoQAw#

St Georges was another of the Million Act Churches for Sheffield. Same plan but with a few more embellishments on the tower.

The photo by Almay 7th one in the list of photographs shows the Tower in all its glory.

I have just had another think???? LOL

If and I say if I remember correctly there used to be a tea room in Endcliffe Park which would overlook Sharrow. The tea room that is there now looks like an old cricket pavilion but the one I remember was stone built and rather impressive. Another Church to look at would be St Augustine (1899) which would probably fall into the one mile radius.

Elaine in Ottawa.

They were in Hanover Square in 1924-1925

in 1933 Jane was living at Crowder Ave.

Hanover Sq would overlook St Mary's Bramall Lane I am sure.
The carriageway is there now and not much left of Hanover Sq by the looks of it on my map.

Just suggestions but I think its time to put this thread to bed.....Good Luck Audrey.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Hi Dave
Thank you so much for all your effort and Elaine and Wendy.I knew different people would see different clues but I must admit I couldn't see where Elaine was coming from with her tea selling until I looked again and saw the teapot!
Ive looked at these photo's so many times and still missed many of the clues you all found.
A really special thank you to you Dave .Its a wonderful piece of detective work and you must have spent a long time finding all the information I really appreciate it.
Audrey x

Hi Audrey et al,
Elaine, could I just have one last kick at the can..??
On Genuki website www.genuki.org.uk/
type in Hanover Methodist Centre, Broomfield. Ignore the pic and go to the interactive map.

You will first see Hanover Way. Scroll down, following Hanover Way and you will see Saint Mary's Gate starting at the Moore St roundabout and ending at the Bramall Lane roundabout, then it becomes Saint Mary's Road. Saint Mary's Church is located to the south (?) of Saint Mary's Road.
Saint Mary's parish hall or rectory is on the north side(?) of Saint Mary's Road. There is also a cafe shown just a little north of the Hall.
Note 'Saint' is not abbreviated.
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy: