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Just received this message from the West Riding Rootsweb Mailing List.
Interesting....... Maybe you sleuths can help.
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Jan Bartz janbartz@kpnplanet.nl via yahoo.com
05:27 (3 hours ago)
to west-riding
Dear readers,
Since several years I am trying to complete the genealogy of Jan Beethoven,
born ca 1485 in Kampenhout (near Mechelen) in Belgium. This Jan van
Beethoven is also the oldest ancestor of Ludwig van Beethoven the great
composer. At this moment there are still living more than 100 personen with
the surname van Beethoven who all had Jan van Beethoven as theire oldest
ancestor. During my search I have problems with Alphonsus Petrus Joannes van
Beethoven and I hope the solution can be found in Yorkshire.
My information:
Alphonsus Petrus Joannes van Beethoven, born 10-2-1879 in Antwerpen
Married 1. On the 25th of February in Antwerpen Maria Dymphna Colen, born
4-6-1876 in Merksen, died in Antwerpen/ Merksem/Yorkshire
Married 2. Mary Dixon in Belgium/Yorkshire
Married 3. Possible in Yorkshire
Children from the 1st marriage:
1. Antonius Theresia Josephus van Beethoven, born 26-11-1897 in
Antwerpen
2. Josephine Yvonne Alphonsina van Beethoven, born 11-11-1899 in
Antwerpen
Somewhere I read that Anthonius died in Pontefract, Yorkshire, England and
on the basis of that information I was searching on the website "findmypast"
in the United Kingkom where I found some information that might solve part
of my problem around the family of Alphonsus Petrus.
According to this information:
Died in 1916 in Pontefract, Yorkshire, England Antonius T.J.van Beethoven
who was born in 1898. Is this the above mentioned
Antonius Theresia Josephus, born 26-11-1897 in Antwerpen???
Died in 1919 in Keighley, Yorkshire, England Josephine van Beethoven who was
born in 1900 . Is this the above mentioned Josephine Yvonne Alphonsina van
Beethoven, born 11-11-1899 in Antwerpen ???
Died in 1916 in Pontefract, Yorkshire, England Mary D van Beethoven, who
was born in 1876. Is this Mary Dixon the second wife of Alphonsus Petrus
Joannes van Beethoven and where were they married
In Houghton Le Spring , Durham, England took place a marriage in 1919. Is
this again Alphonsus who married a third time after the death of Mary Dixon
In 1916 was born in Keighley, Yorkshire, England a certain Gaberyel van
Beethoven. Is this may be a daughter of Alphonsus and Mary Dixon and are
there probably more childeren from this marriage.
In 1919 Alphonse was mentioned in "The England & Wales Marriages 1837-2205".
Is this a third marriage. He is than 40 years old so everything is possible.
As I am not aware of the possibilities you have in England by exploring this
kind of information (is there a civil registration as we know it in the
Netherlands and in Belgium) so I just put my questions in this mail hoping
that it might have any result.
Thanking you in advance for any information I remain yours faithfully,
Jan E.M. Bartz, Merelstraat 18, 4561KJ , Hulst - Nederland
Tel. 0031114315622 - GSM 0031653745370
Email: janbartz@kpnplanet.nl
Instant Messenger: Skype
Hi Elaine
I have just sent a message to Jan Bartz o tell him that the marriage in 1919 was to Mary Dixon, so there was no third marriage.
I have suggested to Jan that he signs on to us so he can see/ get involved in any responses.
Dave
Edit Also the death in Pontefract in 1916 is of 40 yr old Maria, not Mary, so that is the death of his first wife.
Dear all, I have sent an email to Jan as below
Jan, here are some clarifications of your questions.
Q Died in 1916 in Pontefract, Yorkshire, England
Antonius T.J.van Beethoven
who was born in 1898. Is this the above mentioned
Antonius Theresia Josephus, born 26-11-1897 in Antwerpen???
Q Died in 1919 in Keighley, Yorkshire, England
Josephine van Beethoven who was
born in 1900 . Is this the above mentioned Josephine Yvonne Alphonsina van
Beethoven, born 11-11-1899 in Antwerpen ???
ANSWER The death registration in England does not record a birth date. It simply records an age at death, as given by the person reporting the death. The dates (years) you quote for the above 2 records have been calculated by findmypast from the record. Therefore, assuming the person reporting the death was accurate, the calculated birth date could be one year out, Therefore yes they are the people you are looking for.
Q Died in 1916 in Pontefract, Yorkshire, England Mary D van Beethoven, who
was born in 1876. Is this Mary Dixon the second wife of Alphonsus Petrus
Joannes van Beethoven and where were they married.
ANSWER This death registration (from Free BMD) is actually for MARIA D van Beethoven and she was 40 yrs old. Therefore she was Aplhonsus first wife. She died in the third quarter of 1916, ie after the birth of Gaberyel below.
Q In Houghton Le Spring , Durham, England took place a marriage in 1919. Is this again Alphonsus who married a third time after the death of Mary Dixon
ANSWER This marriage registration (free BMD) is to Mary Dixon, so this is Alphonsus second marriage,three years after the death of his first wife Maria.
Q In 1916 was born in Keighley, Yorkshire, England a certain Gaberyel van Beethoven. Is this may be a daughter of Alphonsus and Mary Dixon and are there probably more childeren from this marriage.
ANSWER From the GRO Index this child was born in WILLESDEN, not Keighley. The maiden name of the mother of this child was PEETERS. Gaberyel was born in the first quarter of the year. Therefore it is possible she was the daughter of first wife Maria, who then died six months later hundreds of miles away from Willesden. However because of the maiden name and the fact she was born in Willesden it is more likely she is born to a different van Beethoven family. To be certain you would need to buy the birth certificate.
Whoever her parents are, there are no more births from this mother, maiden name Peeters
Q In 1919 Alphonse was mentioned in "The England & Wales Marriages
1837-2205".
Is this a third marriage. He is than 40 years old so everything is possible.
ANSWER as above
Now some information on the system
Birth Certificates,Death Certificates and Marriage certificates can be purchased on line using Credit Card, from the General Registry Office (gro.gov.uk). Birth and Death
ones can be obtained as PDF by Email and each costs about £7.00. They take
about a week from placing the order. Marriage certificates cost a little more
(£11.50 each I think) and will only be sent as paper copies by snail mail,
taking anything up to a month from time of order.
We can help you to place orders for certificates if you wish.
Birth certificates
contain Name, Birth Date, Address of birth, Registration Date, Father full Name
(and occupation) and Mother full (maiden) name
Death Certificates
contain Person name, Age at death, place of death, Name of person registering the death and their relationship to the deceased.
Marriage Cerificates
contain Name. Age and occupations of each of Bride and Groom, their addresses,
the names and occupations of each of their fathers and the place of the wedding.
Please feel free to join us on www.sheffieldindexers.com/ForumIndex.html
Dave
I have not yet had an answer from Jan. However there are still two of his questions to be answered:
Adolphus van Beethoven married Mary Dixon in 1919 in Houghton, Durham. He was 40.
This is the last trace I can find of them.
Did they emigrate?, where did they die?
Any suggestions?
Dave