Am trying to find records for the early life of Thomas HATTERSLEY or RUDD, born 1819 York, married 1840 Sheffield. He was a scissor maker and had his own company. From his RC baptism he would appear to have been illegitimate, his mother given as Mary/Mariae Rudd, though he quoted his father as John HATTERSLEY, farmer, on both his marriages (1840 and 1851), using Hattersley as his surname for his first marriage and Rudd for his second.

Would like to fill in the gap between 1819 and 1840: was he brought up in York or in Sheffield? was he apprenticed in York or Sheffield.

The Hallamshire Cutlers list finishes too early.

Suggestions would be most welcome.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Have you followed him on any of the census?

Where specifically was he in 1841.

Hattersley a very common name to Sheffield as well as scissor making. We need more info than you have given us.

I dont know if there are any further apprenticeship records but Sheffield Archives might be a place to start.


Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

The Cutlers Cmpany ceased to control apprenticeships in 1914. My ancestor was officially apprenticed to his grandfather in 1913 and is in the list. His younger ( by 2 years) brother was also trained by the grandfather starting in 1915, but there is no official document recording that. I know he was an apprentice because he was named as such in the Bradfield Militia lists.
I suggest that the best chance of finding anything positive is to find his mother Mary Rudd. She must have married or died or left the country.
Dave

From his marriage in 1840 I have Thomas and his families on all relevant census etc. He marries twice, as Thomas HATTERSLEY in 1840, and as Thomas Hattersley RUDD in 1851, both Sheffield. His first wife, Ann nee MARSDEN, by whom he had two sons, died in 1851, his second wife was Frances nee GIBBINS, some 15 years his junior. He died in 1873, Frances in 1886. There were 11 children by the second marriage, many of the sons went to Australia selling their father's scissors etc.

Although much of his post-1840 life is known, nobody seems able to find any clue as to his pre-marriage life. Was he educated in York, or was he brought to Sheffield? Nor can I find any likely reference for his mother or his presumed father.

His RC baptism on 16 Jan 1819 (the day after his birth) was in York, St Wilfrid (next to the Minster) by Fr Benedict Rayment, known as Little Blake Street, his godmother was named as Ann COLBECK, no godfather. There are miscellaneous connections between the Colbeck and Rudd families, but it hasn't been possible to prove these properly.

There is a Maria Hattersley aged 16 as female servant aged 16 in 1841 census, but I doubt this can be connected to Maria Rudd.

I will write to Sheffield Archives to see if their Poor Law/Board of Guardians records could offer help, and similarly will write also to York.

It's all a bit of a mystery.

Oops, sorry, when I said 1913 and 1915 I of course meant 1813 and 18 15. Sorry about that.
Dave

A Mary Rudd, born 1801, married in 1821 to William Sanderson in York. A possible mother to Thomas?
Dave

Quite possible - where did you find that?

it is on Find My Past.Worth finding in the censuses?
A search of censuses (UK wide) on FMP for John Hattersley with optional keyword FARMER produces about a dozen answers, but only 2 of them were old enough to be the father of Thomas. One was born 1785 and was a farmer in WORTLEY and the other born 1795 was a farmer in RIPON. The first died in 1853 and the second in the 1860s. Both are in the 1851 census.They may be worth investigating, eg when married, when they had children
Dave

Hi Jenny,
I've been trying to fill in the gap between 1819 and 1840 for ages - I know you have too. So far with no clues whatsoever.

The only thing I managed to ascertain is that the Roman Catholic priests in York were very unlikely to provide any kind of support or education or apprenticeship help to Mary and her son. This would have been provided (if at all) by the Church of England authorities. It's been a bank holiday here so requests to the archivists in Sheffield and York will be delayed - even supposing they have any records which might help.

As you may remember Thomas' godmother was a Colbeck: there are more of this name in the area:-

Pallot’s Marriage Index has Thos Colbeck m Eve Rudd 1816 Rotherham. (no other details given in Pallot’s)
IGI has Thomas Colbeck m Eve Rudd 29 Oct 1816 Rotherham-submisson A457433
FMP image: 29 Oct 1816 Rotherham York [possibly dedicated to St Ann]: Thomas COLBECK, bachelor otp & Eve RUDD spinster otp married in this Church by Banns by Thos Blackley curate: both signed, witnesses Francis Shiers, Joseph Wright, both signed. [not regular]
IGI has bap Anna Colbeck b 26 Jul 1800 bap 27 Jul 1800 at St Wilfrid’s Mother Eliz. Colebeck. Extract P012481

IGI has bap Ann Colbeck b 24 Apr 1813 bap 25 Apr 1813 at St Wilfrid’s parents John Colbeck & Eliz. Extract P012481
S&N image TNA reference: RG4 / Piece 4056 : Register of Births and Baptisms at the Catholic Chapel in Little Blake Street in York, Yorkshire from 1771 to 1838
1813 April 24 were born & April 25 were baptized Mary & Ann daughters of John COLBECK & Eliz. his wife (formerly GOODELL) sponsors were Jonathan and Ann Mewson, by B Rayment

Do you have this info?

Jay & Jenny,

Confusing bunch your rellies. LOL.

Is this Thomas in 1851

Name: Thomas Hattersley
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Hattersley
Gender: Male
Where born: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Nether Hallam
Ecclesiastical parish: Crookes
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:


Registration district: Ecclesall Bierlow
Sub-registration district: Nether Hallam
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 57
Piece: 2336
Folio: 237
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Hattersley 32 Blade Forger born Sheffield.
Mary Hattersley 27
James Hattersley 11
Mary Hattersley 9

Are we sure that the Baptism in York is correct???? If he(Thomas) was a Catholic one would expect his children to be the same.

Can you give us a Census where it shows him and his family and you know it is 100% correct.
Maybe we need to come back to go forward.

Have you checked the Directories out for John Hattersley Scissor maker????

Elaine.

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Not the right one. Here he is in 1851:

1851 'Park Mount', Sheffield Yorks RD Sheffield SRD Sheffield Park ED7 EP St John HO107/2341 fol196 p31 s107
Joseph GIBBINS Head Marr 63 Scissor Manufr (employing 25 men) Darnall Yorks 1788
Mary GIBBINS Wife Marr 56 Darnall Yorks 1795
Joseph GIBBINS Son Un 23 Scissor Smith Darnall Yorks 1828
Sameul [sic] GIBBINS Son Un 20 Scissor Smith Darnall Yorks 1830
Eliza GIBBINS Dau Un 16 Scissor Burnisher Darnall Yorks 1835
Harriett GIBBINS Dau Un 12 Scholar Darnall Yorks 1839
Thomas Rudd Son in Law Marr 30 Scissor Smith Sheffield Yorks 1821
Frances Rudd Dau Marr 19 Scissor Burnisher Darnall Yorks 1832


He started to use RUDD as surname between the births of his first two sons by Ann Marsden. Frederick Henry born 1841 registered as HATTERSLEY, and Thomas born 1843 and registered as RUDD. Certificates prove both.

The York baptism first found by descendent in Australia. Birthdate exactly right according to his life story.

Here he is in 1861

1861 119 Ecclesall Rd, Ecclesall Bierlow Yorks RD Ecclesall Bierlow ED 13 EP Broomhall RG9/3470 f5 p3 s15
Thomas Rudd Head 42 Grocer & Scissors Smith York Yorks 1819
Frances Rudd Wife 29 Darnall Yorks 1832
Frederick Rudd Son 20 Scissors’ Smith’s App Sheffield Yorks 1841
Thomas Rudd Son 18 Scissors’ Smith’s App Sheffield Yorks 18
Eliza Rudd Dau 9 Scholar Sheffield Yorks 18
Charles E Rudd Son 7 Scholar Sheffield Yorks 18
William H Rudd Son 6 Scholar Sheffield Yorks 18
Catherine Rudd Dau 4 Scholar Sheffield Yorks 18
Walter Rudd Son 2 Sheffield Yorks 18
Hannah KNIGHT? Servant 22 Domestic Servant Swannick Derbyshire


newspaper report and subsequent censuses.

Brit News Arch Sheffield Daily Telegraph - Tu 30 Apr 1867
THOMAS RUDD, Manufacturer of all kinds of useful and ornamental - Scissors, Razors, Table and Spring Cutlery
Begs to inform the ladies of Sheffield and the public in general that he has opened the shop, No 8 Change Alley, opposite the King’s Head Hotel, for the Sale (this day and following days) of Cutlery and fancy leather goods, comprising a selection of Ladies’ Companions, sets of Scissors, in cases, of the newest designs, suitable for presents. All goods are of the best workmanship and guaranteed quality. Table Cutlery, Razors, Pen, Pocket, and Sportmen’s Knives, in great variet; Corkscrews, Nutcracks, &c, &c.

1871 101 William St (Ecclesall Bierlow) ED Broomhall RG9/4670 f130 p10 b
Thomas Rudd Head Marr 52 scissor manufacturer York
Frances Rudd Wife Marr 38 Darnall
Charles E Rudd Son Un 17 scissor smith Sheffield
William H Rudd Son 16 scissor smith Sheffield
Kate Rudd Dau 14 Scholar Sheffield
Walter Rudd Son 12 Scholar Sheffield
Florence Rudd Dau 9 Scholar Sheffield
Frances G Rudd Dau 6 Scholar Sheffield
Edwin Rudd Son 5 Sheffield
Frank E Rudd Son 2 Sheffield
Albert E Rudd Son 11 mo Sheffield
Maria HINCHLIFF serv Un 20 general servant Rotherham Yorks

1881 130 Upper Hanover St, Ecclesall Bierlow Yorks RD Ecclesall Bierow ED18 EP Broomhall RG11/4633 f30 p1 s1
Frances Rudd Head W 47 Grocer & Provision Dealer Darnall Yorks
Catharine Rudd Daur Un 24 Sheffield Yorks
Florence Rudd Daur Un 19 Sheffield Yorks
Frances M Rudd Daur 16 Scholar Sheffield Yorks
Edwin G Rudd Son 15 Scholar Sheffield Yorks
Albert E Rudd Son 10 Scholar Sheffield Yorks

Earlier from the Sheffield Indexer archives:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Tweedales Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers (1st edition)

Thomas Rudd
According to a trade advertisement. Thomas Rudd established his business in 1844. In the following year, he was listed in Eyre Street. By 1849, he was based in Tudor Street, with a residence in St Philip's Road. By the 1850s, he was making scissors in Ecclesall Road, while also running a grocery business. In the early 1860s, Rudd's address was Victoria Scissor Works, Sycamore Street, where he advertised as a maker of "Fine scissors, tailors and American shears, horse-clipping, pruning, paper and flower scissors and button hooks". He also occasionally worked as a grocer. By 1868 when he advertised in the local directory, he was living in Wolstenholm Road. By 1871, Rudd had moved his business to Norfolk Street and was living in Winter Street.

Thomas Rudd was apparently married twice. A relative of the family has suggested that Thomas Rudd's original name (when first married) had been Hattersley. His second wife was Frances, a scissor burnisher, who was the daughter of Joseph Gibbins. Rudd had several sons from his marriages, including Charles Edward, Albert Edward and William Henry Rudd. Thomas Rudd died on 10 November 1873 aged 54, after a long and painful illness, and was buried in the General Cemetery. He left under £450. Frances was buried in the same grave, aged 53, on 6 August 1886.

The business was restyled Thomas Rudd & Sons and by 1876 was based in Norfolk Street, with Charles E Rudd as the senior partner. Frederick H Rudd was a scissor manufacturer at Regent Works, Regent Street, and also running a tobacconist's shop. Around the turn of the century, the business seems to have disappeared from directories, though by 1905 Charles E Rudd was listed as a scissor manufacturer at No 48 (back of) Eyre Street. Albert E Rudd was a manager at an unknown factory address. By 1911 Thomas Rudd and Sons was listed again at the back of Eyre Street, with Charles E Rudd as a partner, living in Broomspring Lane. The business still operated in Eyre Street in the interwar years, with William Henry Rudd as the partner by the 1930s. It was not listed after 1960 and was absorbed by Bolton Surgical Ltd, a Sheffield maker of surgical instruments.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I bought a copy of this Tweedales Directory - ESSENTIAL if you have any Sheffield cutlery connections.

I'd hoped to find a Will for John Hattersley, perhaps naming the son Thomas, but records have been researched but nothing relevant has been found.

J

Hi Jay,

I remember us having a crack at this before. And I kept hitting info that looked familiar.

Thanks for filling us in with the census info you have.

I was wondering about this.

Hattersley, John (, grcr. & cutly. mfr.).
Address: 58 Bridge st, in 1841.
Recorded in: Henry & Thos. Rodgers Sheff & Roth Directory - 1841.

The grocer is what caught my eye. Its the York connection that keeps throwing me.

Elaine.

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The following info can be found FMP
1 Mary Rudd baptised York All Saints 1801 Roman Catholic. Parents John Rudd and Elizabeth
2 John Rudd married Elizabeth Burton 1795 York Holy Trinity.
3. Mary Rudd married William Sanderson 1821 York. I believe it names her father as John (can anyone with subs please confirm)
4 John Rudd born 1773 buried York 1833.

If, as seems likely, this is the correct family, then when Mary had an out of wedlock child in 1819 she would be under age. Therefore she and the child would be the financial responsibility of her father, if alive. The guardians of the poor would not be responsible and would need to take no action.
Following Mary Sanderson nee Rudd through the censuses may throw up some clues.
Dave

Hi Jay,

If and I say if the Directory information (1841) is correct they are on the 1841 census as John a grocer living on Bridge St with a Thomas. Ages dont match? Unless John was only 15 when he had Thomas.But...... how about him being a brother?

Elaine.

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When Thomas HATTERSLEY married on 6 Sep 1840 (to Ann MARSDEN) he named his father as John HATTERSLEY occupation Farmer.
When Thomas Hattersley RUDD married on 10 Feb 1851 to Frances GIBBINS he named his father as John HATTERSLEY occupation Farmer.

If they are widowed brides have a different surname to their named father, but this doesn't usually happen with the groom, except through illegitimacy, perhaps adoption, or they are using a stepfather's name.

Only illegitimacy would appear to be relevant in the case of "my" Thomas.

Not sure where the grocer occupation comes from? Frances ran a shop after she was widowed but that's all.

Unfortunately the source of the marriage is FamilySearch. No image available except in one of their centres.

Hi Jay,

Just something that happened in my Tree to a g/grandparent. He gave his fathers name as William on his marriage certificate when in fact he was illegitimate. William was his grandfather who had brought him up. In other words was he lying on his marriage certificate or was he told that William was his father.

Just a thought.


Elaine.

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Dave,

No Image on Ancestry either.

BUT.

Name: Mary Rudd
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 4 Jun 1821
Marriage Place: Saint John Ousebridge,York,York,England
Spouse: William Sanderson


Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

If it is true that John Hattersley was a farmer, could he be the one married to a Mary ( age 49) on 1851 census with a family? She could have had thomas wnen young. Age or religion may have prevented marriage, but may have set Thomas up with some training. By this time he was married. Hattersley relatives who were cutlers could have trained him unofficially.

There is also a file maker and journeyman named john hattersley living in ?Bromall Lane in 1851. When he married the second time Thomas gave his address as Broomall street.

I know Thomas was not Catholic as all the boys here in Australia said so and they were all completely non-religious too. One, William Henry, refused to employ Catholics in his business (a granddaughter still alive in her 90s remembers that)and my granddad Edwin was anti-Catholic although he married one, not that he cared much but it came up in his divorce. The Hattersleys are big in the Protestant church in Sheffield, windows etc. So I am wondering if religion caused a break? or was it a reason for John Hattersley never marrying Mary after all? there are a couple of unmarried older women in census who could be her.

On the 1861 census fit says he was both a grocer and a scissors maker. I take the point you made earlier that it was probably managed by Frances, or someone else until she was widowed in 1873.

thanks Judy, I didn't have quite all that information, nor do I have Tweedales directory. I did pay for British Newspaper Archives which has helped a little.

I take you point, as I've come across this kind of scenario quite often, but the fact the he names his father as apparently the same man on both his marriages eleven years apart, and he has himself changed his name makes me believe that this is likely a fact rather than a fiction. But I'd like to find proof - i.e. more info needed between 1819 and 1840.

They also give familysearch as the source of this info.

Did the boys know Thomas was baptised a Roman Catholic? Did they realise Thomas' mother was RUDD and that's why they have that surname?

Jay, on Thomas marriage certificate, did he sign or make his mark please?
Dave

Hi Jay, DaveT and Jenny.

Just lining up my ducks.

The two marriages what church or where did they take place?

My gut feeling is that we have two different John/Thomas Hattersley snippets/ information clouding the issue. The York baptisms I believe to be incorrect.

The burials that took place at the General Cemetery took place in C of E ground.

The title of Farmer covers a whole range of occupations both big and small.

The grocer could be something quite modest i.e. "the corner shop"

The "Gibbins" info (1851 census) is maybe where Thomas was employed and where he met Frances.

Did that company carry on or could that be what Thomas took over.

Hattersley is such a common name around Sheffield but NOT Rudd.

DaveT from your dealings with Bradfield Archives wasn't it common practice to take illegitimate boys from the area and place them with families and in apprenticeships?

Elaine.

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Hi Jay,

LOL. The Ducks are getting there slow but surely.

I finally found Thomas on the 1841 census. Nothing coming up on Ancestry so with help of our transcription of the 1841 census and the discs I had I found him.

Piece 1335/1 Folio 10a.
St Philips Rd Sheffield.
Thos Hattersley aged 20 Scissor Maker born Yks.
Ann Hattersley aged 20 born Yks
Frederick son aged 3mths born Yks.

From the GRO index.
Frederick Henry Hattersley March qtr 1841 Sheffield 22-576
MMN Marsden

So all that bears out.

We have Holy Trinity baptisms in our database.
The marriages are still to be transcribed.

I wonder?????
I found this in a Directory on Ancestry.
John Hattersley - Farmer.
1833 Rotherham Parish (Catcliffe)

from our 1841 census transcription.

Hattersley, John of Catcliffe, Beighton. Aged 45 years.
(Piece #1332/8, folio 5b, enumeration district 3.)

John Hattersley aged 45 Farmer all born Yks.
Mary 35
Mary 15
Eliza 15
Sarah 11
Charles 8
John 4
male 4
Frederick 1.

This could be a 2nd marriage for John.

Thats it from me....... I believe when we tried to help before I thought more info on the York end of the story was called for. BUT I still have doubts about it.

Night. Elaine.

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Jay,

If you can give Vicki a date of that 2nd marriage she maybe able to turn it up for you.

She will have the photographed copies that we use.

Give her a nudge if she doesn't spot this message.
Her e-mail is under Contacts & Thanks.


Elaine.

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No, I am afraid no place was mentioned in the lists made by descendant William Henry Rudd who came to Australia. In fact he does not mention the first marriage or the first wife. No mention of baptism or religion either. None of them talked of an earlier family but the grandson who went to West Australia in 1924 apparently did.

re apprentices: Another thing that might suggest Thomas was an apprentice to Joseph Gibbins - William Henry wrote in a newspaper article (a Qld newspaper 1927) about his early life that his family had been in the cutlery business for 200 years. This was also in his obituary. Even allowing for Rudd exaggeration, it can't be Thomas. It has to be his mum's Gibbins lot.
Were there any records of any kind for illegitimate children who were taken as apprentices? Where would they have lived? It is likely how Thomas met his second wife who was a 'scissors burnisher' most likely in her father's firm.

I assumed both Thomas' marriages were in Protestant churches - but I don't know Sheffield!

Hi Jay
Just to summarise with regard to the early life of Thomas:
1. The censuses are consistent. He was born in York about 1819.
2. He was illegitimate with the name Rudd.
3. He believed his natural father was a John Hattersley, farmer.

We have a perfectly timed baptism for a Thomas Rudd born 1819 in York, baptised Roman Catholic to Mary or Maria Rudd but then a big blank space between then and 1840.
A Mary Rudd was born in York in 1801 to parents John (labourer) and Elizabeth nee Burton
I have many illegitimate births in my family tree between 1790 and 1840, and they are all very different in their outcomes.
The first thing to consider: was the mother a minor?. If she was then her parents were legally and financially responsible. If she was 21 or more then the guardians would step in and there would be a *******y order.
The Mary Rudd born 1801 was a minor in 1819, so she and her parents would have to sort themselves out.
I have many cases like this, with many different solutions:
1. The child is brought up by the grandparents and the mother gets married. If the husband accepts the child it may go to live with them and either retain its illegitimate name or take on the name of the step father. Or it may remain with the grandparents
OR
2. An adoptive parent is found for the child, usually a childless couple.

There was no legal adoption system until the 1920s, so before that it was done on an ad hoc basis. I have an example where the child was baptised with the illegitimate name and the surname of the adoptive parents inserted as a second name. Or the adoptive parent may be a relative. Anything was possible, but legally the baptismal surname had to be the name of the natural parent. So the adoptee grew up knowing he was "adopted", and probably knowing his mother.There was no legal basis for the "adoption"

Based on everything else that has been said in this long thread I believe the following scenario is feasible:
Mary Rudd was working as a servant on the farm of a John Hattersley and she became pregnant at the age of 17 or 18. The perpetrator was either John himself, or perhaps his son John. Either way it would be denied and she would be packed off home in disgrace. She was the daughter of a lowly labourer and he was a rich farmer. No contest.
An adoptive parent who happened to be RC was found for the child, , so he was baptised Catholic with the name Thomas Rudd probably with the adoptive parent as godparent.
As he grew older perhaps he rejoined his now married mother, or his grandparents.
This scenario would fit with him being (surprisingly) educated.
He apparently made no secret of the Hattersley story to his children because first son Fred retained the Hattersley thread through to his death.
Was his apparent dislike of Catholics due to his early (perhaps unhappy) upbringing in that faith?
I suggest that you should explore what happened to Mary Rudd (Married 1821 to William Sanderson).and her extended family. She had 4 younger sisters: Ellen (1803), Elizabeth (1806), Frances (1808) and Alice (1810) and there are obvious marriages in York for 3 of them. Where did they go?,husband occupations? You may be surprised if connections crop up. (eg witnesses at weddings, moving to Sheffield)
Sorry this is so long but I believe this is your only chance to find something in that black hole.
Dave

Thanks Dave, i will try to explore all that. I still find it hard to believe he would be using the name Hattersley right up until the 1840s if the father would have nothing to do with him.

Jay,

Are you aware of the Frederick Hattersley on the 1871 census. Scissor Manufacturer born "Rotherham."

Could this be the young son of John Hattersley from the 1841 census?

Is it a coincidence that he is a scissor Manufacturer.?????

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

No, i thought it was you but maybe it was Judy Rudd in WA who is not answering the email I sent. Perhaps it was just that the birthday , on William henry's list, matched perfectly.

The Holy Trinity Wicker Marriage is as follows

10 February 1851

Thomas RUDD, 30, Widower, scissor manufacturer (Cricket Inn Rd crossed out in favour of) Wicker
Father John Hattersley, Farmer

Frances GIBBINS, 19, Spinster, Snow Hill, father Joseph Gibbins, Scissor man.r

Both signed. One witness Samuel Bennett

Vicki

Morning Jay and Jenny,


"The children of The half- brother Frederick Henry Hattersley Rudd, deceased, or anyone with knowledge of their whereabouts." This ad was in newspapers as late as 1943.


Do you have all the census info on Frederick Henry which certainly leads to that John Hattersley Farmer on the 1841 census. Frederick was one year old on that but I do wonder if it should read 1 mth. The farm was at Catcliffe which I think is now part of Rotherham.
Mary was the wife 10 tears younger than John. MMN on Frederick birth reg Marsden.

HATTERSLEY, FREDERICK HENRY MARSDEN
GRO Reference: 1841 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 22 Page 576

1881 census.

Name: Fredk. Henry Hattersley
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Elizabeth Hattersley
Gender: Male
*Where born: Catcliffe, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Ecclesall Bierlow
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address: 19 New Machon Bank Rd
Marital status: Married
Education:

Occupation: Scissor Manufacturer Employing 3 Men
Registration district: Ecclesall Bierlow
ED, institution, or vessel: 53
Neighbors:
Piece: 4638
Folio: 144
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Fredk. Henry Hattersley 42
Elizabeth Hattersley 41
Jno. Hattersley 21
Clara Hattersley 20
Fred. Charles Hattersley 17
Joseph Hattersley 15
Walter Hattersley 13
Elizabeth Hattersley 10
Herbert Hattersley 8
Florence Hattersley 6
Mary Ellen Hattersley 3

Jenny if you are like me I like paper maps and the Allan Godfrey Maps are excellent and very detailed. Showing Cricket Inn Road etc. Not expensive plus the postage to Australia.

There are also Maps on our site.

"Picture Sheffield" will also give you ideas of what the area was like.
http://www.picturesheffield.com/


RUDD, Frederick Henry Hatt (, died on ?, at the age of 53).
Resided at Brincliffe Hill and buried on 15 Oct 1896 in ? ground;
Grave Number ?, Section ? of All Saints Cemetery, Ecclesall.

He had re married by 1891 (Janet)


If you have all the census info up to 1911 the next step would be the 1939 INDEX which might help get you one step further.

The York connection could be just that Thomas's mother was sent off to rellies in York for her confinement.

Catcliffe certainly needs more research as well.

Elaine.

PS. There is a Map of Sheffield on Picture Sheffield. 1808.

It shows The Park which is an area of Sheffield that had been an old Park in the past.
Cricket Inn Road is just below where it says The Park.

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Jay
A few bits of background info for you:
Are you aware that (GRO INDEX) in Q2 1846 there was the birth of WALTER RUDD MMN Marsden in Sheffield. He died in Q3 1846. It seems logical they would have had at least one other child between 1843 and Ann's death in 1851. Notice it is Walter not Walter H.
So he married as Hattersley, first child was Hattersley, second was Hattersley Rudd and third was just Rudd.
A rhetorical question: When Ann Marsden met this man did he introduce himself a Hattersley or Rudd?. When he (presumably) lied about his name at the marriage, did she know his story, or did it come out later? Was he Hattersley before he got to Sheffield?
With regard to the business. 2 things may be of interest:
1. During the 19th century the industrial revolution was well under way and cutlery manufacture was being automated and mass produced, but many traditional cutlers would not tolerate the new ways and there were many disputes over wages and prices.
2. At the very end of the century President William McKinley, at a stroke, virtually wiped out the sheffield cutlery industry when he introduced swingeing import tariffs to USA, thus removing almost at a stroke the main export market for Sheffield cutlery.
That is why many men who had been cutlers until then suddenly became grocers, beerhouse keepers, publicans, tram drivers etc at the turn of the century.

I have been unable to trace Joseph Gibbins back before 1841, and he certainly did not serve an apprenticeship in Sheffield. I have a list of ALL the trade marks active in Sheffield cutlery in 1919 There is no trade mark associated with Gibbins or Rudd. Also I can trace no earlier trade mark associated with either Gibbins or Rudd. Add to this that you said one of the Rudds was a scissor "putter together". I believe that the Gibbins and Rudd factories were of the mass production type, ie they bought stamped out pieces of steam hammered steel, and put them together and ground the cutting edge. This means that at the time they would have been officially described as second class goods. That does not mean they were no good, only that they were not completely hand made and forged by traditional methods (which was the then definition of first class goods). There were many good profits made in those officially second class goods, as my GGG grandfather proved with his spring knife business.There were regular newspaper articles in Sheffield through the 19th century which reported how second class goods and first class goods were faring in parallel.
I wonder if the moves to sell in Australia were driven by the loss of the massive US market at the turn of the century?
I know this does not solve your problem of the early life of Thomas, but I hope it puts the scissor manufacturing side into a realistic context.
I wish I could find out what happened to Mary Rudd who married William Sanderson in York in 1821. They existed, but I can find no further confirmed trace of them.
Dave

If you do not already have it, the birth cert of Walter Rudd will give you the name used by his father at that point, and his occupation
Dave

I found a William Sanderson with wife Mary in Gateshead in 1851. He's a Slater by occupation. They are in Leeds in 1841 where he is a Blue Slater. Haven't transcribed or taken proper notes yet.

There's a tree on Ancestry for John Rudd and Elizabeth Burton, it shows their daughter Mary born in York, and her husband as William Sanderson born in Newcastle in 1796. Mary is said to have been baptised 21 Jun 1801 at "All Saints Pavement & St Peter the Little, York" and is quoted as LDS baptism data. Marriage being the one you suggested 4 Jun 1821 St John Ousebridge.

Think you found that Mary's parents might be John and Elizabeth? I came across a Will (but now cannot find again!) on the web in last couple of days for Bessie Rudd, who mentions William Sanderson and Mary his wife, there are other family members too. Think that might be the right family. Shall have to look for this again.

Your notes re the cutlery industry are very helpful, thank you.

As far as the change of name is concerned, it's really a guess. Ann Marsden's parents were both dead by the time of her marriage in 1840, the witnesses are regular to the church, not relatives. She may not have known of name variation before her marriage - we don't know whether Thomas knew either! he could have been brought up believing his surname was Hattersley, and only later on having to change to Rudd. I had research done at the Borthwick in the Wills of 1841-44 to see if there was a Rudd or Hattersley testator where Thomas might have been mentioned - but nothing turned up. (I am in London so have to rely heavily on web access or researchers to help.)

Have to go will continue later.

Jay, your Sanderson info fits with the births in Newcastle on Tyne of Francis Sanderson 1828 and Frederick Sanderson 1831, mother Mary, father William, a slater. If this is right they would be half brothers to Thomas.
Dave
Edit and Elizabeth Sanderson in1834

Quick transcriptions of census for William and Mary Sanderson, I've typed them from S&N images, and they don't give full reference, just piece numbers.

1841 S&N Spaw St, Holbeck, Leeds RD Leeds HO107/1344
Willm Sanderson 43 Blue Salter J Y
Frank Sanderson 12 Y
Mary Sanderson 40 Y
Elizabeth Sanderson 7 Y
Ann Sanderson 5 Y
Martha Sanderson 3 Y

1851 S&N East Street, Gateshead, Durham HO107/2402
William Sanderson Head Mar 54 Slater Newcastle on Tyne
Mary Sanderson Wife Mar 50 York
Martha Sanderson Dau 13 Scholar Leeds York
Mary A Sanderson Dau 7 Leeds York
Fielding Lenton Visitor U 25 Coach Painter York
Nathan Fell Visitor U 22 Stone Mason Batley Y

1861 18? Dunning St, Bishopwearmouth, Durham RD Sunderland RG9/3766
Mary Sanderson Head W 59 House keeper York Yorks
Mary Ann Sanderson Dau Un 18 Leeds
George Thompson B Lodger Un 45 Carver & Gilder Ch… Northumberland
Wm J Spence B Lodger Mar 22 Farm Labourer Darlington Durham
Sarah E Spence B Lodger Mar 26 Leeds Yorkshire
Thomas Boddy B Lodger Mar 22 Farm Labourer Yorkshire
Catherine Boddy B Lodger Mar 21 Leeds
Mary Jane Boddy B Lodger - 7m Middlesbro Durham
George Young B Lodger Mar 31 Coach Smith Alnwick Northumberland
John Merins? B Lodger Un 27 Riviter at Iron Ships Inniskillen Ireland
George McLienghin? B Lodger Un 21 Riviter at Iron Ships Colerain Ireland

1871 18 Dunning Street, Bishopwearmouth, Durham. RG Sunderland RG10/4997
Mary Sanderson Head W 70 Boarding House keeper York Yorks
Mary Ann Charlton Dau Mar 27 Seamstress Leeds Yorks
Alice Charlton Gr dau 6 Scholar Bp Wearmouth Durham
Frank Charlton Gr son 5 Scholar Bp Wearmouth Durham
Robert Dean Lodger Un 37 Slater NK
John Holmes Lodger Un 30 Lab Iron works Newcastle on Tyne
Thomas Andrews Lodger Un 23 Lab NK
Charles Holden Lodger Un 40 - NK
William Campbell Lodger Un 34 Tailor Sunderland Durham
John Farrer Lodger Mar 40 Slater Askin Westmoreland
George Thompson Lodger Un 55 Carver & Gilder Chirton Northd
Charles Marshall Lodger Un 40 Cartwright Grimsby Lincolnshire

Found the document I was looking for: it's on FMP.
City of York Deeds Registers:

16 Jan 1834: Mrs Betty Rudd and others to Mr Thomas Vinor
Indentures of Lease and Release bearing date respectively the ninth and tenth days of August in the year of our Lord One thousand eight hundred and thirty three the Release made between Betty Rudd of the City of York widow and relict of John Rudd late of the same City Publican deceased sole Executrix named and appointed in and by the last Will and testament of the said John Rudd deceased and devisee for life under or by virtue of the same Will of the Hereditaments thereinafter described of the first part
George Rudd of Smith Street
Thomas Place Kennington in the County of Surrey Joiner
John Rudd of the city of York aforesaid Joiner
William Sanderson of the Town of Newcastle upon Tyne Slater and Mary his wife
George Wright of Poppleton in the County of the City of York aforesaid Tailor and Helen his wife
Elizabeth Rudd of the same City Spinster
Francis Masser of the same City Tailor and Frances his wife
Jonas Craven of the same City Stonemason and Alice his wife
and William Holmes of the same City Combmaker and Ann his wife (which said George Rudd John Rudd Mary Sanderson Helen Wright Elizabeth Rudd Frances Masser Alice Craven and Ann Holmes are devisees in fee in remainder of the hereditaments expectant on the decease of the said Betty Rudd) of the second part
and Thomas Vinor of the said City of York Coach Body Maker of the third part
and of and concerning All that messuage tenement or dwelling house occupied as a Public House and known by the sign of King William the Fourth situate in Fetter Lane in the Parish of Saint Mary Bishophill the younger in the City of York late in the occupation of ----- Granger but then of the said Betty Rudd And also all that cottage late in two cottages situate up the yard behind the said Public house and thereto adjoining which messuage or tenements and hereditaments were purchased by the said John Rudd deceased of Christopher Graveley of Hatton near Leeds in the County of York Gentleman Together with the appurtenances +c.

Mortgage (with power of Sale) of the above premises for securing to the said Thomas Vinor the sum of £250 and Interest
~~~~~~~~~~~

That document certainly confirms the connection of Mary Sanderson nee Rudd to Betty and John Rudd.
Hugely helpful for that.

Unfortunately as it is dated 1834 the available census won't put the family under one roof, but I shall pursue the names anyway.

J

Jay, more evidence if you need it comes from the GRO index:
1842 Leeds birth of Mary Ann Sanderson with mother maiden name RUDD.

That indenture is fantastic.
Jonas Craven was the husband of Alice Rudd born 1810
George Wright was the husband of Ellen Rudd born 1803,
Francis Masser was the husband of Frances Rudd born 1808
Elizabeth Rudd was born 1806,
George Rudd was born 1796
John Rudd was born 1798
All were children of John Rudd (who died 1833) and Elizabeth Nee Burton.
There is now no doubt that the Mary Rudd who baptised her illegitimate son Thomas Rudd as RC in York in 1819 was the same Mary Rudd who married William Sanderson in 1821.
I suggest you are now looking for a childless Colbeck couple who were RC.
One possibility is Jeremiah Colbeck who married Ann in york in 1818.

Edit. In Tadcaster, city of York in 1818 Jeremiah Colbeck born 1793 married Hannah Servant born 1797. I can find no obvious births for this marriage.
Dave

Wonderful tips, thank you Dave, and Elaine I take the point about maps. Thank you.
Now there is so much to look up!

Jay I do have ancestry access, but like you I have not updated my line. Too busy trying to sort out Mary. I will try the newspaper archives for clues under every name possible as well as other sources.

BTW there was one boy who did not go to Ausrralia, that was Charles, and his sons continued the Rudd firm except the one who went to WA. Then the family died out, or at least I can't find descendants.

YES I Have all children and descendants of Tom and Frances, don't bother looking them up. I will send info if you want but it will be in my book with stories. Now looking for possible descendants of some of the girls. Catherine's (called Kate) only daughter Elsie never married. Florence (Florrie) had Daisy who married Nixon and had kids but can't get any answers to letters I sent to addresses on electoral rolls. Other two girls no children. Boy Stanley Jackson had sons but I can't find them. Tried a few dead ends.

Descendants of Charles I have also tried -
Children of Charles:
Kate Hickson R nee Eddell but no answers; Frank had daughter Barbara married Hutley; Cn of Arnold both went to Canada and never married. Wm Henry had no cn. Emily Rudd later Newsam had so Rowley Newsam but can't find more of him.

I have also advertised in current Sheffield newspapers. So any suggestions very welcome! Jenny

Thomas signed, at both marriages. First wife made her mark, second wife Frances Gibbins, signed.

There were still newspaper ads. for the Rudds in 1950s. Jenny

Hi Jay et al,

Another spanner in the wheel, on Family Search there are two baptisms for THOMAS RUDD

1)An England & Wales Non-Conformist Record (RG4-8) for
Name: Thomas Rudd
Event: Baptism
Christening Date: 16th January 1819
Christening Place: York, Yorkshire
Mothers Name: Marie (no surname recorded)
Ref: RG4_4056

2) An England Births and Christenings Record
Name: Thos. Rudd
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 16th January 1819
Christening Date (Original: 16th January 1819
Christening Place: Little Blake St. or Saint Wilfrid R.C. York, York.England.
Birth Date: 15th January 1819
Mothers Name: Mariae Rudd

Supporting previous comments that Thomas may have been adopted by a Catholic family.
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Hi Jay et al,
Another spanner in your work, on Family Search there are two baptisms for your Thomas Rudd:

1)Taken from England & Wales Non-Conformist Record Indexes(RG4-8)
Name: THOMAS RUDD
Event type: Baptism
Christening Date: 16 Jan 1819
Christening Place: York, Yorkshire
Mothers Name: Marie
Ref: RG4_4056

2) Taken from England Births & Christenings
Name: THOS.RUDD
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 16 Jan 1819
Christening Date: 16 Jan 1819
(Original)
Christening Place: Little Blake St. or Saint Wilfrid RC.
York.York.England.
Birth Date: 15 Jan 1819
Mothers Name: Mariae Rudd

It is interesting that both these baptisms took place on the same day, if we are to believe the two Christening dates recorded in the above RC baptism.
The above also supports what has gone previously re a possible adoption by a Catholic family or any agency if they existed at that time.
HAPPY HUNTING:sleuth_or_spy:

Thank you Wendy. Now we have two babies! Or is it poaaible that Catholic adoptive parents had him baptised again on the same day to make sure he was of their faith??

Hi DaveT/Jay/Jen,

I hate to be a stick in the mud here and we all like to help but I am getting a little nervous of the space we are using on this issue which is not now in the Sheffield area.

Can I ask that if you wish to carry on could you do it off the Forum please.

Jay & Jen its been an interesting journey and a really hope you can go back in time.

To all who have helped out with the research work you have been great and keep up the good work.

Thanks Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Jay,
There is a standard form to print off on the Sheffield archives website to request work.
I have sent you an email with some more thoughts of areas to look at
Dave

Sad, but I understand. It has been wonderful having all that help and to be given so many leads. Thanks to you all. If anyone finds new info you can email me at jennyruddoneill@optusnet.com.au