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I am researching a relation who was injured and lost his right eye due to a shrapnal wound in WW1, I have traced him as far as the 1901 census where he is registered as a patient in the Sheffiield Royal Hospital West Street.
Whatever he was in hospital for he survived, but I am unable to find any further info on what he as in for, does anyone know if patient records are accessible for this peiod (1901) any help would be appreciated
Thanks Steve
Hi Steve, Have you found him in 1911 census?
I doubt hospital records will have been retained from WW1 . Best bet would be to see if his service record is available - whats his name & date of birth - I could check that out. Unfortunately 60% of all service records were destryed in WW2 fire bombing of London so only 40% chance his records are availably
John
Thanks for the reply John
I did not make it clear in the post but there are two separate incidents, When he lost his eye due to shrapnel was about 1917 during WW1. The first incident was noted in the 1901 Census when he was an "Inmate"in the Sheffield Royal Hospital. If you could find anything out about his WW1 service that would be great
As far as I know he was Ernest George WALTON born 1887 in Sheffield, parents Frank William WALTON and Annie (Nee Robinson) and I believe he served in the Yorks and Lancashire Regiment but I have no proof of this
Thanks Steve
Hi Steve, There is no service record for an Ernest George Walton of Sheffield. The nearest is an Ernest Walton of Sheffield who was in Yorks & Lancs but he was born 1894. There is no clear medal roll for him either (medal rolls do not show address or next of kin). So I regret you may not find anything for him.
I think he died 1942 - might his death ceertificate give any clues?
Best of luck, John
Thanks John
You are correct he did die in 1942 in Herries Road ( No2) Thanks again for looking for the service records
Steve
2 Herries Rd is successor to Workhouse ie City General Hospital if you didn't know
Thanks Elaine, John.
John, It seems that he was there just as it was being changed to a hospital
Thanks Steve
Steve
If he lost an eye in service in ww1 he must have received a pension. He is not showing up in the pension records on FMP. Also there must be a Medal Roll Certificate for him.
The George Ernest Walton Born Sheffield 1877 had mother maiden name Taylor, (GRO Index) not Robinson.
What evidence do you have for his war service please. Do you have a marriage for his parents?
Dave
Dave
His dob is 1887 not 1877,this dob ties in with his age on his marriage cert it also gives his fathers name and occupation (Tailor) On Ernest Georges Death cert his age at death and occupation are both correct. Ernests occupation except thhe 1901 census is French Polisher
His birth details are Ernest George Walton born Margh 1/4 1887 in Sheffield GR Ref 9C - 397
Apart from a photo of Ernest George with only one eye I have no evidence about his militaary carreer
I am pretty sure I have it correct as far as I have got, but, I have no objection to being proved wrong I just want it accurate
Steve, sorry my 1877 was a typo for 1887.
According to GRO ernest George Walton was born q1 1887 Sheffield 9c 396. His mother maiden name was Taylor. You said your relative had mother maiden name Robinson, and his father name was Frank William Walton.
I cannot find a marriage for a Frank William Walton to a Robinson.
I cannot find an Ernest Walton born to a mother maiden name Robinson.
Dave
Dave
Thanks for putting me right with the Taylor where I got the Robinson from I have no idea. All I have to do now is find a marriage for them bearing in mind that she is Annie in all the census, and according to the 1911 census they had been married 25 years with one child.
Could Annie have been married before she married Ernest's father? Just a thought.
Hi Steve
Theres Frank William Walton - Tailor - died 1918, Sheffield aged 53. Hes buried with Sarah Ann Walton, who died in 1929. She could have been known as 'Annie'??
On the 1881 census Sarah Ann Taylor aged 17 Born in Everton, Nottinghamshire (as on census for annie Walton), living as a Domestic servant.
Struggling for a marriage between Frank William Walton and Sarah Ann Taylor.
Denise
The village of Everton , Notts., was in the East Retford Reg district.
In 1864 there are 2 Sarah Ann Taylor births there. The one in March Quarter would be 17 at the 1881 census. Mmn Bell.
The other onewas reg Sept quarter. She would have been 16 at the 1881 census.mmn Bolton
It looks like there is no marriage registration.
Steve, what family tradition is there about Ernest and WW1please? Let us see if we can find him in ww1
Dave
.
Thanks Denise
Dave the only info I have on Ernest George WALTON is that he lost his right eye due to a shrapnel wound about 1918. THe only reason I have for assuming this to be true is I was shown a photo of a soldier with an eye missing said to be him. There is no evidence to confirm his identity.
With regard to Frank W's wife Sarah Ann I am trying to obtain a copy of the M.I. for their grave which may shed some light on the problem.
As a final bit of info the family came from Chesteton in Cambridgeshire. most of them called William and most were Tailors.
Steve
Steve,
Any man who travelled abroad with the military to a war zone in Ww1 will have won at least 2 medals with his name, rank numbe and regiment on. Where are they?
There will also be a Medal Card for him.
Any man who lost an eye in action would be granted a war pension. Those pension records survive. He is apparently not amongst them (can someone please prove me wrong on that!).
What if he lost the eye as a child?. When the war then started he could volunteer, or in 1916 he would definitely be called up, and he would go into the Army Service Corps (a man with one eye would not be allowed in an infantry regiment). He may then go to a war zone and qualify for medals, or he may not, but he would still wear a uniform and serve his country.
Can you get a copy of that photo. The uniform may be telling
Dave
Dave
I agree with all your comments, I cannot find the military info on him either something is definatly missing or wrong with all or some of the info that I have been given. Ihave a copy of his uniform photo but I am unsure how to attach it to this reply, if infact you can.
Steve
Steve, please send it to my email address. I will get it on to the site.
Dave
Here is the photo:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u3lsz8rz5vn1iev/Ernest%20George%20Walton.JPG?dl=0
it is not the best quality. The most important detail is that he is wearing his cap, so his regimental badge is fully visible, if blurred.
If that is not recognised by someone on this site then I recommend you post the picture on a WW1 web site. Someone will oome up with a positive ID to narrow down your search
Dave
Thanks Dave I will try that
Steve
Hi Steve
This site might be of help. Theres a forum where you can post for help!
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com
Denise
Steve, I believe that badge is Royal Lincolnshire Regiment. Google it and see if you agree.
There is a Medal Card for Ernest G Walton 29114 Lincs Regiment. Later he was 10067 Labour Corps.
He gained British Medal and Victory Medal.
This means he first entered a war zone after Dec 31 1915. At some point he became less than A1 fit so was transferred to Labour Corps.
Once the draft was introduced towards the end of 1916 a man was less able to choose his regiment.
I cannot explain lack of pension record.
Will check his sign up date
Dave
Steve, I believe we have a definite ID of his medal card.
I have sent you an Excel file of casualty records downloaded from CWGC.
These are all the casualty records of Lincs Regiment personnel who had numbers between 28800 and 29900 and who died after 1st Jan 1916
and who has his address listed.. There are 22 records. I eliminated about 20 more who did not have an address listed.
Note the following:
All 22 died in 1917 or 1918, none in 1916. So it looks like they were drafted at the earliest the very end of 1916.
All 22 died age 26 or more.
Only 2 came from Lincs
7 came from Yorks
Others came from Northumberland, Staffs, Cumbria, Notts.
So it is clear that many older Yorkshire men were drafted to the Lincs Regiment at the same time as Ernest G Walton
Finally, there is a pension record on Ancestry for a Ernest Walton of the Labour Corps.
I do not have subs so cannot see the record. You should check that out.
Dave
Steve, The Pension record for Ernest Walton is for Labour Corps no 119642 who had previously been in 5th Battalion E Yorks Regiment. His previous trade was miner. His disability was an accidental gunshot wound to the left foot which happened 24 June 1916 in France. His home was at Farm Cottages, Deepcar, Sheffield.
Sadly this does not seem to be the Ernest Walton we are looking for.
Steve, have taken another look at the cwgc data I downloaded. It is quite clear from that that Ernest George Walton was drafted age about 30 in late 1916. He was definitely not A1 because he was drafted in to the 12th Battalion, Lincolnshire regiment. At that stage this was a newly formed LABOUR battalion, ie providing labour to work in comms in France and Belgium (google it).
The reason there is no Pension record is because he must have lost his eye BEFORE he was drafted.
I shall tidy up the Excel file from CWGC and colour code it and send it to you later.
Basically it shows that the 999 numbers between 29000 and 29999 were clearly reserved for exclusive entry to the 12th (Labour )battalion. The number blocks either side of this block have men going to every battalion except 12
If anyone else want to see that file, please let me know.
Dave
Dave
I have been taking a look at thhe other research I have on EGW and noticed that on the 1901 census he isan inpatiient at the Royal Hospital, West Street, Sheffield, Iam wondering if this could be to do with his eye. It coulld tie in with what you suspect about his role in the army.Your knowledge of this area of research is far superior to mine for which I am thankful. TomorrowI shall contactthe Sheffield Archives and ask about access to these records, I am hoping I can do this on line as I live on the east coast.
Steve
Steve, here is a final summary of what we now know about Ernest G Walton’s war service:
1. His cap badge (your photo) shows he was with the Lincs Regiment
2. There is a Medal Card (Ancestry, free to view) for Ernest G Walton in Lincs regiment (No 29114) later Labour Corps (10067)
3. He gained the British and Victory medals so he first arrived in theatre of war AFTER 31st Dec 1915.
4. His medal card does not say Discharged and it does not show a Silver War Badge. Therefore he could not have received a war pension
5. The file I sent you (downloaded from CWGC, free to use) shows that Lincs regiment numbers 29000 to 29999 were all issued to men going into the 12th Lincs (Labour) Battalion and the vast majority of them later transferred to Labour Corps.
6. From forces-war-records.co.uk:
12th (Labour) Battalion (Lincs), July 1916 Formed at Brocklesby,
Aug 1916 Moved to France to work on the Lines of Communication.
April 1917 Transferred to the Labour Corps as the 16th and 17th Labour Corps.
From this we can conclude that Ernest was called up in July 1916 (the draft had been introduced in March 1916). He was sent to Brockleby, near Grimsby where he and about 1000 other men from all over the north and midlands became the newly formed 12th Lincs (labour) Battalion. They were all less than A1 fit.
The battalion travelled to France in August 1916 to work on lines of communication.
They suffered their first of a war total of about 33 fatalities in November 1916.
In April 1917 the 12th Battalion was disbanded and all the men transferred to the Labour corps.
Ernest was demobbed at the end of the war.
He definitely did not lose an eye while on war service. That must have happened before he entered the military.
Dave
Dave Again thanks for all your hard work and sharing your expertise.
Steve
Steve,
Before the military aspect took over in this thread you had an unresolved issue with respect to a marriage for Frank William Walton and Sarah Ann Taylor. No one has been able to identify a marriage registration for them..
From Ernest’s marriage cert and various censuses there is no doubt that they were Frank William Walton, tailor, born Cambridgeshire and, from censuses, Annie his “wife” born Everton Notts about 1864. The burial of Frank is on this site, and in the same grave is Sarah Ann Walton born about 1864. It therefore seems pretty certain that she was Sarah Ann but commonly called Annie. The GRO index gives Ernest’s birth with mother maiden name TAYLOR.
Denise has already reported that there was 17 year old Sarah Ann Taylor, born Everton, Notts in Sheffield as a servant in 1881.
Moira has found Sarah Ann Taylor born 1st Aug 1864 baptised 28 Aug 1864 at Holy Trinity, Everton, Notts with parents George (a shoemaker) and Ann.
The GRO index gives MMN Bolton and also gives siblings (all reg East Retford) Pricilla (1848), Betsy (1850), Ann Elizabeth (1852) Julia (1854 MMN BoUlton)), Emily (1856), William (1858) and Ada (1869). Moira has also traced them through the censuses. The parents are in Everton in 1871 (with William, Sarah Ann and Ada), in Rotherham in 1881 (with Ada) and, in 1891 the widowed father George (a shoemaker) is with his married daughter Julia (Finney) in Rotherham.
Everton, Notts is a very small village. It seems most likely that this is the Sarah Ann Taylor who gave birth to Ernest George Walton.
There is just a slim chance that you may find some documentary evidence to link Sarah Ann Walton to this family. Ada Taylor, born Everton Notts in 1869, is in the 1891 census in Sheffield. She is the wife of Frank Taylor, and FreeBMD gives a marriage in Rotherham for Ada Taylor to Frank Taylor in Q4 1890. It may be worth buying that marriage certificate in the hope that either Sarah Ann Walton and/or Frank William Walton are witnesses.
Dave
Dave
Thanks again for all the info. I have followed the same line as you have to find Sarah Ann Taylors identity, though not spending as long on her family.
I have ben concentrating on why Ernest W was in hospital at the Royal on West Street Sheffield, The Sheffiield Archives say that they do not have patient records for this period. I tried the library the answer was the same, so I am waiting till 1.00pm tomorrow when the local studies library opens.
If you are interested in the patient records most of them seem to beon the link below. this link is to the National Archives but they are, if they have them at Sheffield
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Sheffield+Royal+Hospital+Patient+records&_ps=60&_p=1900
Thanks for all the extra info, i'll keep looking
Steve
Steve, thanks for the link. Unfortunately it confirms that the hospital records for my grandfather early 1900s are not available.
Dave
Did you notice the one marked "Particulars of out patients and in patients at the Royal Hospital
Ref ACM/S/520/2" not sure if this would be any good to you ,i'm notsure what records they refer to.
Steve
Looking at the Sheffield Archives Catalogue, the patients records are available from 1903-1913
RefNo ACM/20/2/2
Alternative Reference number ACM/S/530/2
Title Particulars of out patients and in patients at the Royal Hospital
Date 1903 - 1913
AccessStatus Open
Angela
Thanks Angela I
I have seen those as I mentioned to Dave in my last post.Sods law the ones I want are for 1901 relating to Ernest W who was in the hospital at the time of the 1901 census March time I think
Angela, a slight ***** of light there for me.
Am I correct in thinking the Royal was exclusively for children?
My Grandfather, born 1882 Sheffield, lost an eye in an engineering accident, and I believe between 1901 and 1906, so he was not a child.
Should I be asking the Archives to take a look for me?
Dave
Dave
The Royal Hospital catered for mainly adults as far as I can remember. The Childrens Hospital was and, I think still is on the corner of Brook Hill and Clarkson Street in Sheffield near the university buildings.
You are looking at a similar date to mine,From looking at that link they seem to have records from post 1903 but if you are looking for as I am 1901 and before you may be unlucky. But, It would not hurt to ask the question again they may just turn up something.
Steve
Steve, thanks, do not know what happened there. I typed ***** of light and it was apparently edited out.
Dave
And again. PC gone mad
Hope that I'm not muddying the waters further by pointing out that there is a record on Ancestry for an Ernest George Walton of Sheffield in Wakefield Prison in Sept. 1910, age 22, a French Polisher. He was doing time for Gaming. Many of mine were doing time for the same offence. Mine, at least, seem to have been a very rough gang. Perhaps your Ernest lost his eye in a street fight?
Helen C.
Helen
It certainly looks like my man, the age and occupation are correct for him. But,He was in the Royal Hospital when the 1901 census was taken, the night of the 31st March 1901 which if he was having treatment for an eye injury would go a long way toaddding substance to his war service story,the prison sentence (whch I cannot make out thee sentence) wasincidental,just another park of his story.
Hi Steve
I think the sentence was just for 7 days labour (7 of L), or a fine of 12s 6d instead!!
Denise
Thanks I couldn't make it out
Steve
I know - almost written in code!! Its worth noting that there was also a tick in the column for previous offences so looks like he was a bit of a lad!!
Question for Dave
I have just been looking through our conversations and a question occurd to me ( which is unusual for mornings )If as you say EGW was less than A1 and went into a llabour regiment wouldnt there have been a medical record of his fitness to serve?
Steve
Steve, no there would not. All personnel who volunteered or, after March 1916 were drafted, would be assumed to be fit when they arrived at the point of sign up and would be allocated a number. They would then be given a simple but thorough medical check and there could be 3 outcomes.
1. A1 fit, so sign up for infantry and retain the allocated number.
2 Fit to serve but not A1. Send to ASC or Labour Corps. lose the number
3. Unfit to serve. Reject, lose the number
No records needed. Just a simple 3 choice decision
In cases 2 or 3 the allocated number would effectively be lost. This explains why there are many gaps in numbers if you look for soldiers who signed up at the same time
In certain cases there could be a fourth outcome if someone had a particular skill or asset he may be sent to a specialist area.
One reason for less than A1 fit was simply less than 20 20 vision..
Dave
Thanks Dave
That explains it thanks
Steve
Steve, just to complete the picture, if man who was accepted and later became unfit to servehe would be discharged, and, assuming he seved abroad and therefore got a medal card, that would show on the card. If in infantry and became less than A1 but still fit to serve he would be transferred to other than the infantry, most likely ASC or LC.
Once discharged he may or may not get a pension depending on whether the cause of his unfitness was directly attributable to his service.
At sign up, other causes of less than A1 would be flat feet, curved spine, inability to touch toes , breathing problems, and probably many more.
Dave