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Re: Thomas McDonald

Jenny.

Unfortunately I believe that Thomas, Emily and Elizabeth all put incorrect dates of births on the 1939 register. I think they wanted to appear over 50 for some reason.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi

The 1939 register gives his date of birth as 11 March 1888.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Carol,

When he married in December 1912 he stated his age was 21 if he was born in March 1888 that would have made him 24 at the time of marriage. I also know Emily was born in 1893, from the 1911 census, making her 19 at the time of marriage yet she states her DOB on the 1939 register as 1890.

Her mother Elizabeth was born 1852 on the 1939 register, I found earlier census that verified this, however she did have two marriages. During both marriages her age changes to match that of the husband within 1-2 years.

Thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

Thank you for you help. I’ve decided to take a gamble on the 1942 death in Leeds and ordered a copy of the death certificate from the Gov website.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
According to GRO The Emily Crawford who was born in Runcorn in 1893 had mother maiden name Cave. There were several other Crawford children born earlier in Runcorn with mmn Cave, but their first child was born in Sunderland. Charles Henry Crawford married Elizabeth Jane Cave in Sunderland in 1878. (Free BMD).Emily was their last child. Elizabeth Jane did not marry twice because she died and was buried as Crawford with her daughter and son in law in Sheffield. She was actually 96 at death, not 98 as mistakenly registered presumably by her daughter.
I have searched the censuses and there is only one James McDonald who was involved in Boot manufacture. He was born in Leeds and in 1879 he married Bridget Costelow (various spellings) and they had a son Thomas in 1887 q2 and a son John in 1889 Q2. The family is in the 1881 census in Leeds (MacDonald) and in 1891 census in Leeds (McDonald).
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Sorry, the McDonald Costelow marriage was 1879 q4, not 1878
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your help.

I wasn't aware of a James and Thomas McDonald in Leeds. I've been searching mainly for Thomas on the Birth year of 1889-1891 due to him being 21 on the marriage record. Unfortunately its clear from my research that i cannot go by these dates alone. I have ordered the death certificate for Thomas McDonald died in Leeds in 1942 and hope this gives me a few answers.

Regarding Elizabeth Jane again i cannot rely on some of the dates given unfortunately here's what i have so far but the ages just don't add up...

Born 1852 - (1939 record - Death Record - Sheff Indexers Burial record)

Marriage 1878 -
1881 census - age 26
1891 census - age 33
1901 census - age 41
1911 census - age 61
1939 record - age 88
Death 1951 - age 98

Now the dates and ages for Elizabeth above would suggest i don't have the same person on each census. However, when you check the children the names and ages are all a perfect match on each census.

I checked my notes and sorry you are right i don't believe she married twice, however i do have her on the 1901 census living with a Peter Holme in Sheffield, again the children are all spot on. I'm not sure why the both show as married on this record but i wrongly made the note that they were married to each other which as you suggest no name change tells me this is not the case.

thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
Elizabeth Jane Cave was birth registered q1 1855 in Sunderland. Her husband Charles Henry Crawford was born one year earlier in Tynemouth.
Notoriously death ages and census ages can be wildly out. We never know who actually reports the ages to the census enumerator in the earlier censuses.
Most people remember their day and month of birthday, but can easily forget their age in number of years.
For example, I always knew my mother and father's birthdays, but I did not know their ages.
With regard to the 1939 dates of birth, the day and month are almost certainly accurate.
The Thomas McDonald born Leeds 1877 was registered in q2 but that could mean he was born in March and registered a few weeks later.
The birth cert will give actual date of birth, and may confirm or deny his ID.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Thanks for everyone's help.

The copy of Thomas's death certificate arrive at the weekend. Unfortunately no mention of place or date of birth which i always knew it might not. Anyway it does confirm i have the right Thomas McDonald.

Died at Ministry Of Pensions Hospital Chapel Alerton, Leeds.
10 June 1942 Age 53.
Cause of death - Carcinoma of lungs resulting from inhalation of nerve irritant gas inhaled on war service.
Address 25 Ferguson Street, Sheffield.

I have also been able to find a few military records here's what i found...
Year of birth - 1889
Enlist date - 1/12/1910
Date of discharge - 12/2/19 (age 20, 9 years service)
Regtl No - 63470
Unit - Royal Field Artillery - Driver - Badge number B173101
Address- 46 Dutton Road

Awards- Victory Medal. British Star. 14 Star.
Action taken. S.W.B Ra/ 3291 Qualifying date 16/08/2014.

I believe its highly likely that other military records were destroyed in WW2.

I'm not sure where to go from here other than wait until the 1921 census is released in 2022 :white_frowning_face:



Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
Have you found Thomas in the 1911 census? That would give you his place of birth.
You know he signed up on 1st December 1910, and that he was in Hillsborough barracks in 1912 when he married.
Therefore he must have been in a military establishment at the 1911 census.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

That's exactly what i have been looking for, I've looked at barracks outside of Sheffield just in case he moved there between 1911 census and marriage in 1912. I will keep searching.

Thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, try the following on fmp.
1911 census advance search
Thomas McDonald (name variants)
Birth date 1889+-2
Optional keywords PRIVATE.
This gives 17 answers.

Change the optional Keyword to ROYAL
This gives 9 answers, 4 Of which are common.

He must be one of those 22 answers.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
Just looking at he info you posted on the ww1 medal card for Thomas.
The Qualifying date of 16 8 1914 has nothing to do with the silver war badge. That date is the qualifying date for his 1914 star.
It means he arrived in a theatre of war on 16 8 14. War was declared only 11 days before that so that theatre of war was France or possibly Belgium There was no other theatre of war that he could have reached in 11 days.
He must have contacted the nerve agent in France later.
Presumably he returned to UK at least for a short time because his wife had a child in 1917.
He was in the Royal Artillery in war time, but he was not a gunner. He was a driver. This means he must have started in the Transport corps of the Army, before transferring to RFA later. Therefore I would expect him to be in the army in 1911, not the RFA.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
Moira and I have been pooling our resources to see if we can find anything to help.
Combining information from Medal Cards, CWGC, Military Papers (FMP) and the 1911 census we have found detailed info on two wen who signed up for the RFA in November/December 1910
RFA 63464 (just 6 numbers before your Thomas) was Sidney George Sains who died in WW1. His medal card shows he arrived in France on the same day as Thomas (16.8.14). From his number we can say he signed up within 5 days before Thomas, and most probably in the same place. Sidney was born in Burnham on Crouch, Essex and in the 1911 census was an RFA Gunner in Devon, so he had been posted quite quickly after signing up.
RFA 63502 was Thomas Robert Andrews and importantly his military papers survived. He signed up in LONDON on 29 Dec 1910 (so 28 days and 32 numbers later than your Thomas) and was posted only 2 days later as a Driver to the military establishment at Seaforth (Merseyside).He was born in Fulham and was discharged on 28th March 1911.He can be found at his home in Fulham on the 1911 census.
From this we can interpolate that Thomas McDonald signed up in London on
1.12.10 and was probably very quickly posted somehere (Hillsborough?),

Moira found the following:
WW1 Soldiers Medical Records.
T. McDonald.
Service No. 63470
Rank: Driver
Corps: How Bat/28 Bde Afa
Hospital: 51st Field Ambulance
Age: 29 (served 9 years)
Battalion: 65
Admission date: 2 Dec 1917
Transfer date: 3 Dec 1917
In the actual book, the last two columns have RC and CCS and the word Canadians is written under Description.


From this we can deduce that on 2nd Dec 1917 Thomas, a Roman Catholic of Howitzer Battery, 28th Brigade RFA, 65th Battalion was in some way injured. The standard procedure would be to go to a CCS (Casualty Clearing Station) who would patch up and then either return him to the front or transfer quickly to a Field Hospital further back. From there he would be treated then either sent back to the front if sufficiently recovered or transferred to the main hospital at IBC Etaples. (Infantry Base Camp). From there it would be back to the front after recovery or back to Blighty. Because there is no mention in the record of transfer to IBC I suspect that he went back to the front from the field hospital. The CCS was probably Canadian.
It may be significant that the Germans started to use Mustard gas in July 1917. It was not unusual that victims would be treated and decontaminated at the field hospital then returned to the front. Longer term problems would develop later.
Note that age 29 on that date is consistent with a birth date of 11.03.1888, as he gave in 1939 register.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Kyle,

It might help to order a copy of the birth certificate of their first
child Thomas H. McDonald, born Dec Q 1914, Ecclesall Bierlow, Sheffield.
With luck it might give the regiment that Thomas was in and confirm the military history already found. It should also give their address.

The last child born in Sheffield was Frederick C. McDonald, Jun Q 1926.
Their daughter Florence M. McDonald was registered in Bethnal Green, Jun Q 1928. This birth certificate should provide you with the occupation of Thomas.
You might glean information from the births and marriages of the other children.
Other than that, you could contact Sheffield Archives to see if they can check the
Roman Catholic registers for their baptisms.

In 1939 Thomas has put 'military duties'. Did Thomas re-enlist? If so there
could be records for WW11 under a new regimental number. Copies of these can
be ordered but cost £30.

Moira.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave and Moira,

I can't thank you enough for your help, you've gone above and beyond what i ever expected when i posted on the forum.

The information you have provided regarding signing up is vital, we always suspected that either himself or Emily came from London, once i found Emily had originated from Runcorn i suspected it was Thomas that came from London but had no evidence.

I have read through every page of the 1911 census for Hillsborough Barracks, but i didn't find our Thomas. Now with the information you have given i can start to focus my search.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Moira

Thank you so much for your help.

I have the full list of children below. We have never quite been 100% sure whether the spelling of our family name was McDonald or MacDonald. My research suggest its McDonald as this is more dominant. However some of the persons below i registered under both.

Violet was the first born child of Thomas and Emily, her birth was difficult to find as its been transcribed wrong on Ancestry as Victor MacDonald.

I will definitely order Violet's Birth Certificate as you suggest. I have the birth certificate of my granddad William Henry McDonald below. However this was after Thomas was discharged from the army in 1919. Thomas was then an electric tram conductor residing at 46 Dutton Road. Emily was residing at this address on the 1911 census with her mother and siblings. I suspect that this will also be the address on the birth record of Violet, but i hope it will give us more information about Thomas and his occupation.



Violet Mary McDonald
B 1913– D 1972

Thomas H McDonald
B 1914– D 1914

Thomas D McDonald
B 1917– D 1917

William Henry McDonald
B 1919– D 1987

Alice McDonald
B 1921– D 1956

Irene Fay McDonald
B 1924– D 2005

Frederick C McDonald
B 1926– D 1936

Florence M McDonald
B 1928–

Alan McDonald
B 1931– D 2000

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
Unfortunately you cannot use the Army Number to indicate where he came from. From CWGC I have pulled out a list of 26 RFA men who died early in ww1 and whose numbers were between 63000 and 64000. These men signed up between 1908 and 1912, all of them gained the 14 Star and CWGC gives the names and addresses of their next of kin.
Only 10 of them came from places inside the M25. Of the other 16, there were 2 each from Ireland, Scotland, Lancashire, and Yorkshire and one each from Lichfield, Bath, Bristol, Norwich, Brighton, Portsmouth, Bournemouth and Aldershot.
The reason for this is that before Ww1 any man joining the army could choose which regiment he joined, and he would be sent there.
Thomas McDonald RFA 63470 could have come from anywhere in UK.
Do you have access to your G grandfather's medals?
Do you have any idea what could have been the Military duties he was doing at the time of the 1939 register? As Moira indicated, the birth cert of Alan may shed some light on that.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

Thank you, now i understand what you are saying regarding the sign up not indicating where Thomas might have been from.

Unfortunately i do not know the location of Thomas's war medals.

On the 1939 record his occupation states Military duties and references "PTE Royal Defense Corps" theirs possibly a reference to location but i'm not sure what it says. Possibly Ilford? Someone has written notes in red pen "18437 HQ Coy N.D.C"

I have searched for this number in military records but didn't find anything.

I guess the three closed records at the same address are the two youngest children and grandchild.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Moira,

The baptism record on Sheffield indexers shows that Thomas's occupation in 1913 was Laborer.

If i order her birth certificate do you think it would have different information? or possibly give me different information?


MACDONALD, Violet (of 46 Dutton Rd, born ~).
Baptised October 8, 1913, by G C Weaver at St John the Baptist Church, Owlerton.
Parents name(s) are Emily & Thomas (Labourer).
Note: ~
Godparents: ~ :Page No 297 :Reg No 2373

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
It looks like Moira's earlier hunch was right about Ww2 records.
NDC was National Defence Company.. They were formed in 1936 when the Royal Defence Corps was disbanded, and they were mobilised in ww2. He was a private and that must have been his number. His records must be available in the Glasgow records office and as a descendant you can apply for those records. You can download a form from the records website and you must apply by snail mail. The cost is £30 and is non refundable if they find nothing. There is no other way to get those records and you will not find that number on line. However it is almost certain that you will get them. It typically takes up to 6 months to get them.
This explains why he died in a military pensions hospital
Strange that Thomas was a soldier in Hillsborough barracks in 1912 and a labourer in 1913.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Dave,

Can you confirm this is the correct link?

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

If so, i will apply for the records.

Thank you

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, that is correct.
Note that Ilford is only 4 miles from Dagenham
The National Archives at Kew have many files about the organisation and history of the NationaDefence Companies. However they are not digitised so the only way to see them is to visit. They will not have individual person records
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Kyle,

I think the only extra piece of information on Violet's birth certificate
would be her date of birth. You already know which quarter she was born in,
and the baptism gives you a great deal of information,
so is it worth ordering the certificate just for her date of birth.

Moira.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
without your g grandfather's medals I think you have nothing positive to link him with Thomas McDonald RFA 63470. However there are a few points which would indicate that they are not one and the same.
1. RFA Thomas was a Roman Catholic, but Violet was christened Anglican.
2 RFA Thomas definitely travelled to France on 16 8 14 and he was definitely still in France on 2 Dec 1917, so how could he be involved in the conception of Thomas Douglas in Sheffield in early 1917.?
3 if your g grandfather was discharged in 1919, why is he back in the military in 1939? That does not make sense. If he was discharged he was not fit to serve. RFA 63470 was discharged in 1919 when he still had 3 years to run in the Army Reserve. He was not fit for that. If he had been fit enough for any part in the army he would have been demobbed, not discharged
Back to Square 1
Dave


Re: Thomas McDonald

Good morning Dave.

If its ok with you i have sent you an email, as i have evidence from pension records that Thomas McDonald #63470 is indeed the correct Thomas.

I've also attached some other evidence that would indicate we have the correct Thomas.

Thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, thanks for he evidence. The home address on the pension Document is indeed absolute proof that you have the right man. Sorry I doubted you.
There is a lot more military jargon on that document, and a lot of very faint stuff which I shall try to enhance.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
Here are a few details you may have missed:
i.On the Death Cert for Thomas the cause of death is lung cancer (carcinoma of the lung)which was determined by post mortem (PM). The certificate was supplied by the Leeds Coroner, James Henry Milner, who held an inquest on June 12 1942.
His conclusion was that the lung cancer was caused by exposure to an irritant gas when on war service.
2. The military pension document has masses of info but much of it very faded. The bottom of the document says PTO and i believe I can also see through the document that there is writing on the other side. It may be worth finding the original to get that other side.
3. The general gist of that document is that in the years 1920 to 1929 there was frequent correspondence between the ministry and Thomas about changes to his pension.There is much (clear) military/medical jargon which I do not recognise, but perhaps if you post it on a military website you may get some clarification
3. On the faint stuff I can see that there are at least 3 references to CL2. One in particular refers to "CL2 AWDS (I assume that is Chlorine Awards) and is dated October 1920.More on this below
4. The document from the field hospital in December 1917 identifies the number of the Casualty Clearing Station and says that Thomas complaint was "Gastric Ulcer?". the ? is important because it says they were guessing. Clearly he was complaining of a stomach problem. The people around him had various complaints: tonsillitis, Boil on neck, finger injury, back complaint, diarrhoea etc. Apparently this effectively a sick parade, not a combat issue.It would have no effect on his pension.
The column for action taken seems to have mainly T52 for most men, but for Thomas and a few others it seems to say "Direct". I do not know those terms.

From this we can see that at some time in WW1 Thomas was affected in a Chlorine (CL2) gas attack. This was fully accepted by the military and he received a pension. At death it was officially decided that his death was a direct result of that military exposure to chlorine. Those attacks took place in the Ypres area in 1916.

I suggest the possibility thatafter exposure to Chlorine he was hospitalised back in blighty, and while recovering there (in late 1916 early 1917) he managed to get home leave. That would explain the birth of Thomas Douglas. The birth cert for Thomas Douglas would give you an approx datefor that event. After recovery he was posted back to his unit in France and saw out the rest of the war. He had signed up in 1910 for 12 years ( 6 in service then 6 in the reserve). In order to give a pension they would need to discharge him from his final 3 years.

I cannot explain why Thomas was recorded as a labourer in the 1913 baptism. He was officially in the RFA then, and was probably absent from the ceremony.He could even have been abroad.
If anyone wants to see the various documents I can post a link to them. I assume you will permit that. We do have experienced transcribers who may be able to see more.

I have some more on date of Thomas birth. Will post again later.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, as promised some inf on Thomas McDonald birth.:
There are 5 records which allude to this
1. His marriage in q4 1912 which says 21 and identifies a father as James McDonald (dec), bootmaker.
2. The field hospital in Dec 1917 which says age 29 ie born 1888
3. 1939 register which says 11.03.1888
4. The Army Pension form which says born 1889
5. The death certificate in June 1942 which says age 53, ie born 1889.

Looking closely at these there is good reason to discount the age at marriage. The presiding officer was only interested in knowing whether or not he had reached 21. It is quite common that 21 was the age put down.
At the field hospital that would be the age he said he was at thetime. The field hospital would not have his army record.
The 1939 register would be the answer he or his wife gave to the enumerator.
The Army Pension form would be from his army records, so would be the date he gave when he signed up in 1910
The death cert date of 1889 was reported to the coroner from the Military hospital, so that will also be from the date he gave on sign up in 1910.

So it looks like when Thomas signed up he gave his year of birth as 1889. However, in 1917 he thought he was 29, ie born 1888, and likewise in 1939 he thought he was 50, ie born 1888. I do not know which is correct, but i am confident he was born on 11th March. You may forget your age (ie the the year), but you do not forget your birthday and month.
So Thomas was born in the first quarter of 1888 or the first quarter of 1889. It is possible in each case that his birth reg may have been done in Q2. It is possible he was born illegitimate and invented a father at his marriage. It is also possible he was born outside England and Wales.
That is still a needle in a (slightly smaller) haystack.
Dave
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Good Morning Dave.

That's great thanks. You are very welcome to post the links to the documents.

I have decided to order the birth certificate of Violet McDonald and apply for the military record from the Glasgow office. I'm hoping this will give me some more information.

I was flicking through some old photographs last week and found a photo from a wedding, there is a gentleman wearing a military uniform. He looks just like my grandfather but i know its not him and the bride in the photo isn't my grandmother. I posted the picture on roots chat hoping someone would date the photograph to co-inside with the 1912 wedding of Emily and Thomas, but only one guy came back with a est date of 1945-1950.

You can visit the page here; https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811367.0

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, is there anything at all on the back of the photo?
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

unfortunately not much, just a number "No 00037" no reference to a studio, date or names.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, your grandfather's two younger sisters married right at the end of world war 2. Have you considered that the photo is him giving away one of his sisters?
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

I think you are probably right. It wasn't something i considered until you mentioned it and also did one of the ladies of the roots chat forum.

My only reservation was that i know the man sat in the deckchair on the beach is definitely my grandfather and i wasn't convinced that the solider, the man with the woman and child and my grandfather were all the same person.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, do you know your grandfather regiment in ww2?
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Dave.

Sorry I don’t have it.

I’m searching for his death certificate so I can requests his details from the site you gave before. If I can’t find it I will order it.

I know he served in the Middle East at some point and during WW2 he was in France.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, speaking from experience, the GRO death entry is good enough for the Army records office. You do not need a full certificate.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Dave,

Do I just provide them with a print out of the page. Or provide them with the information such as index ref and volume number.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Print out of the page from fmp or ancestry or FreeBMD showing the name, quarter, year and ref numbers. You will need his birthdate so they can positively identify him because you do not have his army number.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Thank you Dave. I will also my the application for Thomas McDonald using the number given on the 1939 reg.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, you have Thomas army number. Use that. If you are going to put a birth date down just put 11 March. Do not put the year, or if you do put the year, indicate there is some uncertainty in it.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Dave, Thanks. i didn't realise i don't have a cheque book so have ordered one. So i can send off the payments with my forms.

I did find the following information today while researching the National Defence Company on the Imperial War Museum website www.iwm.org.uk/


"In 1936 National Defence Companies replaced the Royal Defence Corps (RDC), formed in 1917. Home defence had become part of the role of the Territorial Army and as the RDC was not part of the TA it was seen as anomalous that two bodies should share the Home Defence responsibility. The National Defence Companies were therefore set up to be a part of the TA. Enlistment was to be voluntary and limited to ex-servicemen, normally between the ages of 45 and 60. They would be formed on a county or city basis and linked to their local TA Battalion. Their role would be the same as the RDC, the guarding of important sites and prisoner of war camps within the UK. The Companies were mobilised in August 1939, and in November they were formed into battalions attached to regular army units, at which point they were re-named Home Service Battalions. They continued in the role of guarding important points and prisoner of war camps in the UK for the remainder of the war."

This makes complete sense that Thomas would be part of the National Defence Company in 1939 despite being discharged in 1919 and taking different jobs between 1919-1939.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Kyle,

Just a few bits of information which I believe might belong to your Grandfather.

Death Registration: William Henry McDonald, Q1 1987, Sheffield, Vol 3, Page 1286.
Date of birth: 6th October 1919.

Wm.Henry McDonald (Student dob 6 Oct 1919).
Parent: Thomas of 65 Bowfield Rd. Admitted to Hucklow Road School, Firth Park
as of 13 Jan 1925? until 1 April 1926, reason for leaving: St Catherines RC.
(See school records on this site).

Thames Watermen & Lightermen 1688-2010.
William Henry McDonald.
Birth: 6 Oct 1919.
Place: Ecclesall.
Bound Date: 17 Mar 1936.

Moira.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Moira,

This is an exact match for what i have, that's excellent. thanks.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

Just a question regarding one of Thomas's sons. I only have found Thomas D McDonald from Birth and Death records.

How do you come to know his middle name to be Douglas?

thank you

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, the GRO index gives his name as Thomas Douglas McDonald and his mother maiden name as Crawford
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Dave. How can I view the GRO index?

I can only find the birth record on FreeBMD which only gives First name and middle initial. Mother’s maiden name of Crawford.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
see link below. you first need to sign up. it is free.
Then select search the gro index

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Dave,

Thank you. I have never used the site to search GRO indexes only to order certificates using the information from FreeBMD.

Thanks for the advice.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Just to give you all an update, i had a reply from the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow.

Appears that when i filled in the forms i did so as though i was searching for records pre 1922 i.e his WW1 records. I meant to fill the forms in to find out about his 1939 service in RDC.

So its a case of sending them off again.

The letter states that records pre 1922 can be found at the National Archives, does anyone know if i would be likely to find anything here that i haven't already found online? Would it be worth a trip to research the files myself?

Thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

Try this link to the GRO indexes

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle,
I believe the records for ww1 at Kew have been digitised and are available in FMP. Your relative is not among them. Over 2 thirds of the records were lost n a bombing raid and fire in Ww2..
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave,

That's what i thought. I will apply to Army Personal Office again, i will only mention the 1939 information i have as i believe they were confused.

Hopefully i can find something on his service record, i will also do the same for my grandfather.

Thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

So after continued frustration in a hope that I might find more information about Thomas's early position in the army,I decided to order the birth certificate of Thomas and Emily's first child Violet McDonald.

As mentioned before, Thomas signed upto to the army in 1910 and and was stationed in the barracks at the time of their wedding in 1912. However on Violet's baptism record in 1913 his occupation is listed as "Labourer"

On the actual birth certificate his occupation is "Labourer at electric power station" I did some searches and there was an electric power station at olwerton.

I'm wondering now if maybe he worked there in between army service and births of the children?

Interestinglly enough his occupation at his time of death in 1942 was also stated as labourer at electric power station.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, the explanation of mix between army and labourer is that Thomas must have joined the TERRITORIAL FORCE in 1910
From Wikipedia (my capitals):
The Territorial Force was a PART-TIME volunteer component of the British Army, created in 1908 to augment British land forces without resorting to conscription.
The Territorial Force was established on 1 April 1908 by the amalgamation of the Volunteer Force and the yeomanry. The Volunteer Force battalions became the infantry component of the Territorial Force and were more closely integrated into regular army regimental establishments they had previously been linked to.
Recruits to the Territorial Force had to be aged between 17 and 35. They enlisted for a four-year term which could be extended by an obligatory year in times of crisis. Members could terminate their enlistment on three months' notice and payment of a fine. RECRUITS WERE REQUIRED TO ATTEND A MINIMUM OF 40 DRILL PERIODS IN THEIR FIRST YEAR AND 20 PER YEAR THEREAFTER. ALL MEMBERS WERE REQUIRED TO ATTEND BETWEEN EIGHT AND FIFTEEN DAYS OF ANNUAL CAMP.

Clearly Thomas carried on doing his normal job but at the time of the marriage he was doing his annual camp in Sheffield Barracks, where there was a Royal Field Artillery presence.
This means that Thomas would almost certainly NOT be in a military establishment at the time of the 1911 census. it may be worth re looking for him as a labourer in electricity power station in 1911
Of course everything changed at the outbreak of war in August 1914 and he was mobilised.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Just wanted to post an update. I messaged the Army records office in Glasgow they confirmed they recieved my request in July 2019 but i have yet to recieve any information.

I'm kind of giving up any hope of finding anymore information until 1921 census :(

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle
www.gro.gov.uk

You need to sign up, but it is free. Then choose to search the gro index.
The search engine is quaint but the info you get is invaluable.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hi Dave.

Thanks. I've been doing alot of my research using this site since you recommended it to, it been very helpful so thanks alot for that. Unfortunatley i still don't have enough detail on Thomas' birth to find him.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle, sorry my mistake. I was informed you had posted and saw the last message on the page, to which I replied. I did not realise that your post was actually on a second page.
You will hear from the Glasgow records office. It normally takes at least 3 months, and I assume that will be considerably extended in the current crisis.
Hopefully those papers will clarify everything.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Hope everyone is safe and well.
Just an update regarding the Military records, 13 months on and I'm still waiting. I don't hold out much hope, although i have seen some other people waiting 12-14 months during the pandemic!
I have still been actively researching Thomas and his family. I made a post on the ancestry Facebook group just to get some fresh ideas. One helpful lady did point me in the direction of Thomas McDonald born in Leeds to James McDonald (Boot Riveter) and Bridget Costelow. Straight away I remembered that you had suggested this family Dave.
I’m not having a great deal of success tracing the family tree as there appears to be two or three families in the area with similar names and born dates.
Now Thomas McDonald aged 4 appears in the 1891 census alongside James McDonald (Boot finisher) and Bridget McDonald, although this has been transcribed wrong on some sites. (Hauaghan). Both parents born in Ireland, could also suggest his RC religion noted on military pension records I have been able to locate.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=6598&h=6776693&ssrc=pt&tid=171907355&pid=332232695144&usePUB=true

I’ve now trying to find the same Thomas in the 1901 census. I have found one, still living in the Leeds area and Born Leeds, Yorks. Living with a family “Winteringham” now his relationship to head is given as Son, although surnames are different from each other. Aged 13 his occupation is described as “Errand Boy in Leather Factory” with another boy aged 13 occupation given is (____ Boot Factory). Could this be a possible breakaway from the family between 1891 and 1901 and the transcription errors explain the difficulty I’ve had in locating him?

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=26891746&ssrc=pt&tid=171907355&pid=332232695144&usePUB=true

look forward to getting some of your opinions

Re: Thomas McDonald

Kyle
If you look up the Winteringham family in 1911 (Mima) you will see that calling him McDonald in the 1901 census was apparently an error. His name in 1911 was Thomas Fisher Yates, and his "brother" Charles W is still there and he is McDonald.
Dave

Re: Thomas McDonald

Thank You Dave.

Re: Thomas McDonald

Just a little more detail about Thomas from his sons birth certificates...

1914 -
Driver in 3rd Section, 5th Division Of R.F.A

1917-
Driver No 63470 R.F.A

I'd not come accross this infromation until now... "Driver in 3rd Section, 5th Division Of R.F.A"

Re: Thomas McDonald

Anyone wishing to view the tree in question i have created a new tree starting my my grand father William Henry McDonald brn 1919.

I have focused on the Costello / McDonald family for this. I have the family including who i believe could be Thomas my great grandfather in 1891 here...

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6598/images/WRYRG12_3689_3691-0581?pId=6776690

So far i havent found James McDonald Born 1855 - Bridget McDonald Nee Costelow - Born 1859 - Thomas McDonald Born 1887 or John McDonald born 1889 - on any 1901 census.

Please see the link to the tree below...

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/pt/RSVP.aspx?dat=MTcxOTA3MzU1OzswNmUyOTYwMy0wMDA2LTAwMDAtMDAwMC0wMDAwMDAwMDAwMDA7MjAyMDEwMjcxMDA5NTc7MQ==&mac=toLirxtiY2vl0p3ptLwdQA==

Thanks

Re: Thomas McDonald

Good day all,

I hope everyone is safe and well.

I wanted to post an update about my search for Thomas.

In December 2020 i did an ancestry DNA test, via ancestry DNA's "thrulines" I found someone who had linked Thomas to records showing him being born in Edinburgh.

The lady kindly shared the record that she had and it was indeed the correct Thomas.

Find my past - Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FROYALART%2F271247

Thomas' service number is given here as 746477 but does list his previous number as 63470, unfortunately that detail isn't record in Find my past listing. The lady told me she physically checked every record for Thomas McDonald in the collection.

Wife and all children are listed including address in Sheffield.

Place of Birth - Midlothian, Edinburgh!

Re: Thomas McDonald

I have recently found a record in the 1883-1942 Royal Artillery Attestation that gives Thomas's birth place as Edinburgh, Midlothian.

I have a question regarding Thomas regiment number 63470 RFA Driver.

Records show he enlisted in 1st December 1910.

Would he have enlisted to RFA in 1910 or another regiment?

Could he have joined the army in Scotland in another regiment and been posted in Sheffield? Would 63470 have been issued to him in 1910 enlistment (if not RFA) or given to him when he joined the RFA?

Thanks