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Hello, is there someone on this site who may have access to the Territorial Force records please ?
I am interested in searching for Herbert Atkinson (again) b. 1880 - 1914, born in Parkgate, Rotherham but lived on Liverpool Street, Sheffield, who may have signed up for the Territorial Force before start of WW1
Or if someone can point me in the right direction. Thank you all once again.
Thanks Elaine. The only piece of information we have is a remembered photograph on a wall of him in Uniform. As he died early 1914 he would not have served in WW1.
Hi Angie, Elaine is correct. If he joined the Territorials prior to WW1 his attestation papers should show up on the WW1 service records on ancestry BUT over half of these were lost in a WW2 fire. Have you tried ancestry? If not post his name, place & year of birth & I will have a look. John
Hello John, it would be great if you could help.
Details re Herbert Atkinson b. 1880 - 1914, born in Parkgate, Rotherham but lived at 107 Liverpool Street, Sheffield, Angie
Hi Angie,
Are you sure of those dates?
I can only find two birth Registration for Rotherham and that is 1879 & 1890.
Do you know his mothers maiden name? that you can check on the GRO site.
Elaine in Ottawa.
p.s. Deaths Mar 1914
Atkinson Herbert 34 Sheffield 9c 888
Instant Messenger: Skype
Elaine,
The mothers maiden name is in dispute at the moment. Yesterday I ordered copy of her marriage cert from GRO. Herberts parents were married in Rotherham 1878
Herbert J Atkinson died 29 March 1914, age 34 years. Proof copy of death cert from GRO.
Other information I have from previous Ancestry search is - Herbert was Born 1880 Parkgate near Rotherham, Baptised 03 October 1880.
I have today checked freebmd for his birth but cannot find him either, which is annoying !
Perhaps he did not join the Territorial Force. His future brother in law , living next door at the time, Albert Shepherd joined in 1909 (part of burnt records). That, together with story of the photo of Herbert in uniform made me curious to see whether Herbert joined the Territorial Force as well.
Best wishes from sunny Spain
Angie, your new info about Herbert being in the Territorial Force adds a new dimension to the "aircraft testing" enigma.
He must have signed for 4 years and it must have been after the 1911 census
This was a very busy time for the preliminary development of warplanes. In Sheffield Vickers was developing a gun and synchro system to allow a machine gun to be fired from the front of an aeroplane without destroying the propellers. There was intense development, in competition with the Lewis gun,and there must have been a lot of ground based testing of the system, and the army must have been involved. In 1913 the engine they were using was a Gnome Monosoupape (French rotary engine).This was a very dirty engine which pumped partially burned castor oil out through the exhaust at the rate of 2 gallons per hour of running. Anyone working near that would presumably inhale lots of very nasty things. Not good for the lungs.
Was that the reason for his death with lung disease? It would explain the family story that has come down to you.
To read up about this see Vickers Fb 5 for their testing schedule in 1913/14 and Gnome Monosoupape for the dirtiness of the engine. There are detailed Wikipedia entries for both.
Incidentally the list of all Aviator Permits issued between 1910 and 1914 is available on line and Herbert was definitely not one of them.
Dave
Hi Angie,
The following information I gleaned from either FreeBMD/GRO or Ancestry (the 1891 cen)
Herbert Atkinson birth reg Sep qtr 1879 RH 9c 625.
Gro gives mothers maiden name as TEAGLE. They married married Dec qtr 1878 RH 9c 841.
Joseph Atkinson & Harriet Teagle.
Then to Ancestry for the 1891 census.
Name: Herbert Atkinson
Gender: Male
Age: 11
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1880 (1879)
Father: Joseph Atkinson
Mother: Harriett Atkinson
Birth Place: Parkgate, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Attercliffe cum Darnall
Residence Place: Attercliffe cum Darnall, Yorkshire, England
Sub registration district: Attercliffe
ED, Institution or Vessel: 13
Neighbors:
Piece: 3839
Folio: 114
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Atkinson 35
Harriett Atkinson 28
Herbert Atkinson 11
I believe that has dates and family members sorted.
Dont forget to do a Google search for an e-mail address of the Territorials in Sheffield.
Elaine in Ottawa.
Instant Messenger: Skype
Dave, a query - why would he have joined Territorial force after 1911, not before ?
Very interesting information regarding the engines, will check it out on Wikipedia - thanks
Elaine, thanks for the info. Will keep you updated with anything new, kind regards, Angie
Angie, according to 1911 census he was still a boiler stoker, so I assume he had not by that stage joined the army.
Dave
Edit correction. The Territorial Force was part time, so he could have joined before 1911.
Dave, I queried this as Albert, Herberts future brother in law, signed up with the Territorials in 1909 for his 4 year service (and completed it in 1913) and Albert is shown on the 1911 census as working in the steel works. I thought the Territorial was a voluntary thing ???
Angie, it was voluntary but if you volunteered you were in for 4 year, and if war started in that 4 year period they would be immediately mobilised, no choice.. Also at sign on the person could choose to volunteer for sevice overseas, in which case the job would be full time if they actually went abroad.
Do you have Albert Shepherd in the 1911 census, and was he doing his normal job?
Dave
Hi Angie, Sorry but there is no WW1 service record on ancestry for your Herbert Atkinson. Best of luck, John
Oops, I should read everything first. You already told me you had Albert in 1911. Sorry.
Dave
Thank you all once again. If any further information comes to light I will let you all know.
Hello there Angie,
Am I going crackers with this because, his baptism record as his name as Herbert Joseph Atkinson with an address of Lloyd Street Parkgate his father named as Herbert.
The son Herbert was born 12/7/1879, baptised 3/10/1880.
If this looks correct I will go back through everything again using this info.
Cheers Roger.
Hello, thanks for your reply. I will check this out tomorrow and get back to you.
Could the father's name on the baptism of Herbert Joseph Atkinson be a mistake and
should be Joseph not Herbert. If I remember rightly, we have had this same problem
quite recently on this site.
1881 census - Lloyd Street, Rawmarsh, Rotherham, Ecclesiastical parish of Parkgate.
William Atkinson, head, mar, Widower, 77yrs, Turner (iron), born Scotland.
Joseph Atkinson, grandson, 27yrs, Engine driver, born ?????
Harriett Atkinson, grandson wife, 22yrs, born England.
Herbert Atkinson, great grandson, 1yr, born England.
(The entry is split over two pages and there are a few mistakes on them).
In 1871 at Rawmarsh Hill, Rawmarsh, Rotherham, Joseph Atkinson aged 17yrs and
a blacksmith striker, born Barnsley, is with grandparents William and Elizabeth
Atkinson. William is down as being born in North Leith, Scotland. Elizabeth born
Rotherham.
In 1861 they are living at Roman Terrace, Swinton, Rotherham, Yks.
In 1851, the grandparents William and Elizabeth are living at Fitzwilliam Street,
Barnsley.
Moira.
Hi, I have checked my information. Herbert was born 12/7/1879 . I did not know that he was born on Lloyd Street - thanks for that.
Herbert´s father´s name was definitely Joseph, b 1856 - 1922. Could the ´Herbert´ you found be a brother to Joseph ?
If you do come across any other information please let me know. Many thanks, Angie
Moira, thanks once again. Very useful information. Did you happen to notice the names of grandparents of William and Elizabeth in the 1851 census please ?
Herbert´s fathers name was definitely Joseph.
Thanks again, Angie
Hello there Angie,
I have re-visited the Yorkshire Images Christenings for Parkgate, Rotherham Christ Church and indeed Herbert Joseph's father was Joseph and an engine driver.
Lloyd Street Parkgate was the address they where living at when they christened him no doubt that would be the address at birth.
Sorry about the confusion.
Cheers Roger.
Angie,
GRO index gives 2 possible births for Joseph Atkinson in Barnsley in 1854. One is illegitimate and the other has mmn Bramley. The Bramley Atkinson couple produced 3 other children between 1853 and 1859. It therefore seems likely that your Joseph was the illegitimate one, registered as Joseph Wroe Atkinson. It looks as if his mother died before 1861, or possibly she married and left Joseph behind to be brought up by his grandparents.
Dave
Hi Angie,
1861 census - Roman Terrace, Swinton,Rotherham, Yks.
William Atkinson, 58yrs, Blacksmith striker, born Scotland.
Elizabeth Atkinson, 61yrs, born Rotherham.
Charles Atkinson, son, 17yrs, coppersmith, born Barnsley, Yks.
Joseph Wroe Atkinson, grandson, 7yrs, born Barnsley, Yks.
Plus one boarder.
1851 census - Fitzwilliam Street, Barnsley, Yks.
Wm. Atkinson, head, mar, 46yrs, Warehouseman, born Garforth, Yks.
Elizth. Atkinson, wife, 50yrs, born Rotherham.
Harriet Atkinson, dau, 16yrs, born Barnsley, Yks.
Chas. H. Atkinson, son, 7yrs, born Barnsley.
(Was William born in Garforth or Scotland??).
To date, I have not found William and Elizabeth on the 1841 census.
As you can see on the 1861 census, Joseph has the middle name 'Wroe'.
Also, as he was raised by his grandparents, I wonder if Joseph was illigitimate
and the son of one of the Atkinson daughters.
Moira.
Hi Angie,
Did not see Dave's post before I posted mine, but it is good to see that
the information matches.
1841 census - Moorside, Silkstone, Ecclesfield, township of Barnsley, Yks.
William Atkinson, 35yrs, Warehouseman (Linen).
Elizabeth Atkinson, 35yrs.
Edward Atkinson, 10yrs.
Emma Atkinson, 9yrs.
Harriet Atkinson, 7yrs.
William Atkinson, 22months. All born in County.
(All adult ages rounded down to nearest 0/5).
Moira.
There is a marriage in Barnsley in 1858 for Emma Atkinson. There are 2 possible marriages for Harriet in Barnsley. One in 1859 and one in 1860. To find which of the two sisters gave birth to Joseph you will need his birth cert ( GRO PDF for £6).
Dave
Edit: William Henry Atkinson born 1939 (mmn Shaw) died 1846 age 6 (GRO). Charles Emmendry Atkinson born 1843 mmn Shaw (GRO). All these in Ecclesfield which was reg district for Barnsley before 1850. So William's wife Elizabeth was nee Shaw.
Marriage, Ecclesfield, 17 February 1828.
William Atkinson, otp to Elizabeth Shaw, otp.
Witnesses: Hariet Shaw and Charles Shaw.
Moira.
Hi, I have been researching Joseph Wroe Atkinson (census info you gave me) and found a possible mother Ann Atkinson , but Ann does not fit with family census info. She married a John Wroe in Dec 1853.
Ann could have died either Mar 1860 or Dec 1860.
John could have died 1857
I have picked this up from freebmd. and would fit in with 1861 census info.
I was wondering if one of the daughters might have had a different first name. If you have a minute could you let me know what your thoughts might be on this. Many thanks
Angie.
From GRO Index the John Wroe who died in 1857 was 67 yrs old. The Ann Wroe who died March Quarter 1860 was 26 yrs old. That would make her exactly the same age as Harriet Atkinson. The Ann Roe who died Sep Quarter 1860 was 0. She was born March Q 1860 with MMn Brown.
It is feasible that there could be another Atkinson daughter who was not at home in 41 and 51. However The birth registration of Joseph Wroe Atkinson in Sep quarter 1854 was illegitimate according to GRO index. If he was the son of the married couple John Wroe and Ann Atkinson (married Dec Q 1853)he would not be illegitimate,and would be registered Joseph Wroe, unless of course John Wroe refused to accept him as his.
The birth cert of Joseph Wroe Atkinson born 1854 should leave no doubt.
Dave
Correction, The illegitimate Joseph Wroe Atkinson was born March quarter 1854, not sept quarter..
Dave
Hello Dave, an update - have now the birth cert for Joseph Wroe Atkinson and it turns our that his mother was Harriet Atkinson of Sackville Street, Barnsley, no father mentioned. This answers one question. Thanks.