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In 1851 Luke has just married Mary HIBBERD 3Q 1850. They are living with Robert TAYLOR and his wife Mary. Several people have Mary (wife of Robert) as Mary STOCKS but after a lot of struggling with this yesterday afternoon (Snow is useful!), my cousin and I have come to the conclusion that it's actually Mary BUCK. The reason for giving both of those maiden names is because Luke and his wife Mary are referred to as Nephew and Niece. This is where we have a query. Obviously they can't both be related so is Luke the nephew or is Mary the niece?
Robert TAYLOR was born in 1785 in Sheffield so by the time he married Mary on 26 Jan 1819 in Retford the chances are he had already been married once before. Our reason for choosing Mary BUCK as his wife is because we know from the censuses that Mary was born in Retford and her mother, Sarah BUCK, is also living with them in Sheffield in 1851. Mary BUCK was illegitimate.
Can anyone throw any light on how Luke or Mary are connected to Robert Taylor or was it to an earlier wife that I've failed to find so far?
Hi Liz,
Marriage, 25 August 1850, Sheffield Parish Church (Cathedral).
Luke Pryor, 22, B. Steel refiner of Duke St., father, Luke Pryor, grinder.
Mary Hibberd, 20, S, of Charles Street, father, Frank Hibberd, grinder.
Witnesses: ROBERT TAYLOR and Sarah Fr......?
Luke's father, also Luke, was buried 15 Sep 1844 aged 53yrs, of Duke Street.
Sheffield Parish Church.
Was Robert Taylor just a friend of the family and took young Luke under his wing?
I have not found a direct Taylor/Pryor connection as yet.
Under the Apprentices in the left hand column, their is a Robert Taylor, son of
John of Aston, farmer, to Samuel Gray, knife maker, 7-9?, 1800.
I presume this is what is now Aston-cum-Aughton, South Yorkshire.
Robert Taylor, bap 26 December 1785 at Aston, father, John Taylor Junr., farmer.
Moira.
Hi Liz et al,
It is possible for Luke and Mary to be nephew and niece to Robert Taylor if they married as cousins, which may (or may not) explain why I have not found any children in their marriage.
Luke's parents, as Moira commented, are Luke Pryor who I believe married Hannah Machin 19/Jul/1813 at Sheffield Cathedral.
One of Luke's brother's, James Pryor B: abt 1826 married I believe, to Mary Roberts in 1842 at Sheffield. On the 1871 census for Sheffield, James and Mary have 3 children living with them, a daughter-in-law, 2 granddaughters, all the aforementioned have the surname Pryor. They also have a grandson living with them aged 8, whose name is James Taylor.
Unfortunately, I have not figured out which family member he is connected to...??
I tend to agree with you about Sarah Buck being Mary's mother, this could have been an error in the recorded 1851 census, it should possibly have read mother-in-law to Robert Taylor. Sarah Buck is described as a widow and a pauper.
Happy Hunting
Wendy in Guelph
Hi Liz,
Add to my previous comment of:
James Pryor B:abt 1824 with grandson, James Taylor(1862/3) age 8 on the 1871 census.
James (1824) had a daughter, Hannah B:1843/4 (shows up on 1851 census) who possibly married John Taylor in 1861 Dec.qtr. at Sheffield. (Free BMD site)
Just another possible piece to the puzzle.
Happy Hunting
Wendy in Guelph
Hi Moira
I've had another look at the family. I have Robert TAYLOR (such a pain with a common name) as the one bpt in Sheffield 29 Mar 1785 at the Cathedral. I am not yet convinced that this one is correct as it says his father is Paul and we've never had a Paul in the family. In 1844 he was a Scales Presser and in 1851 he's a penknife cutler.
According to the 1851 census Luke and his new wife are living with Robert, his wife and MIL. It says "nephew" but alongside his wife it says "niece" so we don't really know which one is correct. There could be a connection between the Pryors or the Hibberds or the connection could even be between Robert's wife and the Pryors or Hibberds.
Several people have put Robert's wife down as Mary STOCKS (married Sheffield 1818) BUT Robert's wife is always down as born in Retford, Nottinghamshire. There is a marriage of Robert TAYLOR and Mary BUCK in Retford 26 Jan 1819. As Sarah BUCK mother of Mary is living with Robert Taylor and wife Mary in 1851 (as well as Luke Pryor) my cousin and I are more convinced that the Retford marriage is much more likely.
Working out the Pryor connection might solve some of the Robert TAYLOR problems.
Thanks again for your help.
Liz
Hello. I have the same problem with Robert Taylor but it comes from a different side. One of my ancestors is George Taylor born in Sheffield around 1804. When Robert died in 1860, he was living with George at Abbeydale Road Gardens in Sheffield. George also registered the death (from death certificate). The problem is the death certificate does not mention what relation George is to Robert. I have looked all over for a possible baptism for George to Robert but it doesn't look like Robert was George's father. I agree about the Retford marriage for Robert due to the fact his mother in law (Sarah Buck is living with them). The marriage in Retford 1819 also states that Robert was a batchelor, so very unlikely that George born in 1804 can be Robert's son. What makes it strange is that I am also descended from the older Luke Pryor from another side of my tree.
Rich
Thank you Rich. However, I would say "don't believe everything they say on birth, marriage or deaths"! Mary TAYLOR (daughter of Robert Taylor and Mary Buck) married Robert THOMPSON and her first son, born only 19 months after her marriage, was registered as Joseph THOMPSON. Mary was by then moved into Cutthorpe, Derbyshire. One of my cousins (from that line) grew up with the surname NEEDHAM. We had the birth certificate of Joseph BUT following recent DNA results, we've found out that Joseph THOMPSON was actually the son of Isaac Needham. Without DNA we would have been following the wrong line.
So, when Robert TAYLOR married Mary BUCK was he telling the truth about his marital situation. Would Mary not have married Robert if she thought he was already married or widowed? As he was born in Sheffield and married in Retford the vicar would not be aware of the situation. Robert would have been 33 at the time of his marriage so plenty of time for him to have been married before.
Liz
Rich....There are two baptisms at Sheffield Parish Church that might fit
your George.
George Taylor, born 25 May 1804, bap 17 June 1804, parents - Thomas and Sarah.
George Taylor, born 27 Oct 1805, bap 24 Nov 1805, parents - John and Sarah, filesmith.
Moira.
Hi Rich, Liz et al,
On the 1861 census for George Taylor living at Abbeydale Rd,Gardens, there is a son, John Taylor B;abt.1840.
Could this be the John Taylor who married at Sheffield in 1861,to Hannah Pryor B:1844
(see free BMD's Dec qtr).
I mentioned this marriage to Liz previously, Hannah was a daughter of James Pryor, who was most likely, brother to Luke Pryor B:abt 1828.
Also, in addition to Moira's two possible births for George Taylor, there is also a George Taylor born 11 Sept/1806 Sheffield, to parents John and Mary Taylor.
Happy Hunting
All these answers are absolutely brilliant and give us all food for thought. Another problem is with my Robert TAYLOR who, by calculation, should have been born in Sheffield c.1785. The only one who I can find who matches this is the Robert 29 Mar 1785, parents Paul and Ann. I am not convinced this is the correct person as we've never had a Paul or an Ann in the tree.
Do any of you have other thoughts?
Liz
Hi Liz,
Have you discounted the apprentice record I posted previously?
Moira.
Hi Moira
I'd discounted him. I thought 10 miles from Sheffield was a little too far and I found him in the 1861 census, still in Aston and, like his father, he's a farmer.
Liz
Hi Liz et al,
There is a Robert Taylor BAPTIZED Jan/28/1783 at Hill Top Chapel of Ease, Attercliffe
Parents: Robert Taylor and Rebekah Nicholson
Other children but probably not all, of this union are:
Elizabeth BAPT: 8/Jun/1789 at Queen St. Independent or Congregational Ch. Sheffield
Mary BAPT: 20/May/1792 at ditto
Thomas BAPT: 18/Feb/1798 at Sheffield Cathedral
The 1785 birth for Robert Taylor shown on the 1851 census which also shows Luke Pryor etc., etc., is only an estimate.
Maybe Moira or some other sleuth, could advise you where to look for parish church records, so that you can either confirm or reject this line.
HAPPY HUNTING
Hi Wendy
I think you've hit the bullseye! Their eldest daughter, Sarah, was baptised at a non-conformist church born 03 May 1819 bpt 22 Jun 1819. I have managed to track her marriage, children, death etc. However, Mary TAYLOR (my direct ancestor and sister of Sarah) was born c.1823 and I spent ages at the Sheffield Archives many years ago, looking for her baptism to no avail. She could never remember where she was born - perhaps her parents were flitting at that time! She says - Brightside, Attercliffe or even Mexborough! It was lucky that she was visiting Sarah (her sister) in 1861 which helped me find her parents.
Liz
Hi Liz,
I'm not sure I follow your dates or who you are referring to, when you say "their eldest daughter, Sarah"? I assume you are you referring to the daughter of Robert & Mary, who married in Jan/1819 at East Retford...??
F.Y.I. Robert Taylor B:abt.1759(Occ:Cutler) & Rebekah Nicholson were married 8/Feb/1778 at the Cathedral in Sheffield.
Rebekah(Rebecca) Nicholson I believe, was baptized in 1759 at Hill Top Chapel, Attercliffe (father's name-John) which, if still alive, would make her about 60 years of age in 1819 when your referred Sarah was born.
Rebekah's husband, Robert Taylor, I believe, was also baptized in 1759 at Ecclesfield (Father's name-Robert)
So I will assume you are referring to Robert & Mary. Unfortunately, I have not traced any of Robert & Mary's children but now you have given some dates for Sarah and Mary, I can have another scout around.
Cheers
Apologies Wendy. I should have been clearer.
The children of Robert TAYLOR and Mary BUCK are:
Sarah b 03 May 1819 bpt 22 Jun 1819
Robert 16 Aug 1821, and
Mary c.1823.
Mary is my direct ancestor and I never found her baptism although I spent some time many years ago at the Archives looking for her.
Liz
Liz, are you 100% sure you have the correct Robert Taylor? I know it seems a bit of a silly question but it is the occupation that gives me a reason to ask.The Robert Taylor who married Mary Buck was a Knife Cutler (sourced through Census and death certificate) but on the marriage certificate of Mary, his occupation is stated as a scale presser. I also found a burial at the Cathedral in Sheffield for Robert Taylor (scale presser)Feb 1828 aged 37. It states his place at time of death as being Sheffield Park area and both his children Sarah and Robert are living in the area in 1841.
Rich
Hi Rich
Robert TAYLOR does seem to switch between Scale Presser and (penknife) Cutler.
1819 - knife cutler
1841 - (something crossed out) cutler
1844 - Scale presser (when Dau Mary married)
1851 - Penknife cutler
On all occasions the difference in age between Robert and his wife Mary are the same. And locations of Sarah and Mary are as follows:
1841 - Sarah (married) Carrier and Mary living at "Rough Bank".
1851 - Sarah living at Park Hill Lane.
1861 - Sarah living at Marcus? Street East with Sarah visiting.
I understand a scale presser makes the handles of knives so I don't see the difference between knife cutler and scale presser? Perhaps I don't know enough about them.
Hi Liz, Rich et al,
Liz: the Sarah and Robert births and baptisms you gave me, with Mary and Robert Taylor as parents, on both registrations, the father's occupation is presser and scale presser. ref: this website.
I have been unable to come up with anything for Mary B:abt.1823.
Liz & Rich: If Rich is correct, then the children named above most likely belong to Robert Taylor,(Scale Presser) whom Rich proposed died in 1828, aged 37 which places that Robert Taylor as being born abt. 1791.
Note: If Robert Taylor(Scale Presser) died in 1828, he could not have had the Luke Pryor connection on the 1851 census, who was living with Robert Taylor(Pen Knife Cutler) B abt.1875 (poss.1873).
Taylor is a difficult name to research but I think you need to go back to the drawing board.
Cheers
Although the occupations are little similar, they are different jobs. The only concern i have is that on all the documents for Robert Taylor who married Mary Buck he is listed as a pen knife cutler (1841 census, 1851 census and his death certificate). My main concern is the other marriage in Sheffield for Robert Taylor and Mary Stocks in 1818 which is the year before Sarah's birth. What evidence do you have to say that this is not the parents of Mary, Robert and Sarah. On the baptism record for all these, the occupation is Scale Presser and also on Mary's marriage record it is scale presser. I cannot find another Robert and Mary in the census but we know there were two marriage's for Robert and Mary (Stocks and Bucks). The burial i found for Robert Taylor in 1828 (scale presser) is something that i would look into due his age being about right for when he would have married. Can you please confirm how you linked Mary, Sarah and Robert to the Robert Taylor (pen knife cutler) and not the other Robert and Mary.
For a long time we did consider the marriage of Robert to Mary STOCKS but it would appear that that Robert's parents are Paul and Ann. None of the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc of Robert and Mary have ever had a Paul or Ann. That in itself is rather unusual. We then decided to look at Robert and Mary Buck. Mary's mother being a Sarah.
As you say, we are dealing with extremely an common surname and Christian name.