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I'm researching my ancestors, Carlo Maria Theodoro Galvani and Harriett Wharton (or Wurdon). There is a 'clue' that they were married in Sheffield in August of 1854 (the clue is from one of their children, Mathilda, whose birth was registered in Scotland in 1861: the Scottish birth register records the place and date of the parents' marriage: Sheffield, August 1854).
I've made the obvious checks on FreeBMD, and on the Marriages database on this site, but drawn a blank. Would anyone be able to suggest some other lines of enquiry to find a record of their marriage? I'd be very grateful for any further 'clues' -
Thanks in advance,
It's a puzzle.....
I can not see on FreeBMD that there is any Galvani marriage in England between 1850-1860.
Were this couple Catholics?
I would presume that the error could be in the Spelling???
There is a Tree on Ancestry by the way.
Elaine in Ottawa.
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Their entry in the 1871 census shows the oldest child with them was born in Calcutta. Might this be where the marriage took place?
Just checked the GRO records and this child was born in York so don’t know where Calcurra came from.
I don't know how much of this you know so if its a repeat please bear with me.
Quoting from Ancestry and the 1861 Scottish Census.
They were living in Paisley Scotland.
Carlos (Charles) I think it say 32 years old (1829) born Italy and a Language Teacher.
Harriet wife aged 24 ( 1837) born England.
Theodora L.H. dau aged 2 born England
Matilda and 1 or 3 mths old. born Glasgow.
Some kind person has posted the oldest childs birth record.
Theodora Leondine Harriet born 29th Sep 1858 at 19 Grape Lane, St Michael de Belfrey YORK. She was registered by her father on the 8th October 1858. Mother maiden name not very clear.
So we know by 1861 they were in Scotland.
More research that side of the border. Especially following them more to the 1900s.
Maybe Family Search will have more of the Scottish Records.
Doesn't look promising for anything to do with Sheffield.
My husbands family have a Wharton link and they came not far from York in Tadcaster.
Elaine in Ottawa.
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The mothers maiden name is given as Whorden for the birth in1858 of Theodora Leondine Harrriett
I have searched Free BMD for every possible variation of both Carlo and Wharton. There is no marriage in England and Wales for them. Either they did not marry or the registration is missing. I assume because you specifically called her Wharton that she was the Harriet born In Stourbridge in 1838 illegitimate. That certainly fits with her death.at age 41 in Barton Regis.
Tony, try the following scenario:
Carl and Harriet did not marry. They had 2 children in England and on registration provided the info required in England. Their third child was born in Scotland, and when registering an extra question was asked, when and where did you marry?
Would he or she say they were not married?, or would they invent a marriage date and place?
Their later children, all born in England, did not present the same problem
Do you have Harriet's birth cert?
Thanks Dave, Sue, Elaine, Lindsey, Roger -
I think (Dave) that your scenario is one of the possibilities, which I guess are:
* no marriage took place
* it took place but wasn't registered (could being Catholic be relevant to this possibility?)
* it was registered, but not indexed
* it was registered and indexed, but the online records are are 'mis-aligned' (vide the several spellings of Wharton/Worden etc; Galvani has been transcribed as Galeani, Gallam, Gulvin and others; and Carlo sometimes calls himself Theodore or even Charles...)
There are some intriguing oddities in these records: I know this family moved around a lot (a surprising amount for the mid 1800s - Sheffield, Cambridge, York, Glasgow, Oxford, Bristol, Wolverhampton, Bath), but I find Calcutta a bit far-fetched! (This was recorded on the 1871 Census; but the child in question's birth certificate says York: I can think of no reasonable explanation for this!). However, it does seem to be the same family: or at least the names/occupation all match up, when you look at the reproductions of the original records, and make out the writing...
I guess my final ask would be if anyone could suggest any lines of enquiry which could help fill the blanks, in the case of the last three options I listed above?
(If I'm able to land a marriage cert, that's likely to help me find Carlo & Harriett's birth certs...)
Thanks again -
Just found another child.....
Carlo Maria Dec qtr 1864 and yes its Oxford. 3a 536-124.
NOT showing on the GRO index.
My guess is that they never married.....
1 because Theodore was already married and as a Catholic would not have been divorced.
May have even left Italy to escape the marriage. In 1861 I believe he was 32yrs old and Harriet was 24.
I think I would see if i can obtain further help from one of the Cambridgeshire Mailing Lists. (Rootsweb)
Their first child Theodore was registered there June of 1857.
With them moving around so much maybe he was a private tutor of languages and moved where there was work. I wonder........ could he have advertised in a local paper.
Elaine in Ottawa.
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Elaine, the child in 1864 is on GRO index as Galvain. Mmn is Wharton
Tony, The various spellings of Harriet's surname may depend on who was registering the births. Was she literate?. Do you have the birth certs of the various children to see who registered each one?
Harriet died in 1879 in Barton Regis. She was 41 and because her "husband" was still alive it is likely that age is correct. This means that at the time of the supposed wedding in 1854 she was barely 16. A marriage was certainly legally possible, but I think it unlikely.
In the censuses, where does Harriet say she was born?
Edit, sorry, just noticed hubby died one year before her so possibly her age at death inaccurate. How old was she in the censuses?
Hi Dave -
The 1861 census (in Glasgow) for Harriett's birthplace just says 'England', and the 1871 census in Wolverhampton says Wolverhampton (which isn't overwhelmingly convincing, given that Theodora Lenondina (birth cert York) is down as being born in Calcutta).
Like you, I'm inclined to suspect that she wasn't very literate. (Her husband Carlo is always down as 'teacher of languages' or 'schoolmaster', so I've got to assume he was reasonably lettered.) Given the lack of certainty re Harriett's maiden name, it's not very easy to pin down a birth certificate: there are two reasonable candidates in the range 1837-9 (both, coincidentally, from Stourbridge).
(btw, the son Carlo Maria Theodoro Galvani is down on the Oxford Births index twice - once as Galvani, once as Galvain. The actual birth cert can be read either way. All adds to the fun.)
Anyway, still plugging on looking for the (possibly non-existent :white_frowning_face:) marriage certificate...
Tony, how many birth certs do you have, and who was the person who registered in each case.
Do you have the birth cert for Theodora? It is legally possible for her to have been born in Calcutta then registered in York on their return to Uk. If that is true then the birth cert will say so.
Hi Dave -
Galvani family children's details:
Theodore, April 1857, Cambridge, Mother's name WORTON (he never appears again, so I assume he died, not registered...)
Theodora, 29 Sep 1858, York, mother's name WHORDEN, Birth Cert place of birth 19 Grape Lane, St Michael le Belfry, York.
Mathilda, 5 March 1861, Glasgow, mother's maiden name WURD?N, Birth cert sets out parents' marriage as 18/08/54, Sheffield.
(These latter two appear with their parents in the 1861 Glasgow census)
Carlo Maria Theodoro (Jr), 10 Oct 1864, Oxford, mother's maiden name WHARTON
Norma, March 1868, Bristol, mother's maiden name WURDEN
(These four appear with their parents in the 1871 Wolverhampton census)
Menotti, 1872, Bristol (died in infancy), mother's maiden name WARDEN
Emily, 1877, Bristol (died in infancy), awaiting mother's maiden name
Maiden names in BOLD are in the births index for 1837-8 with first name Harriet(t)
Of the three birth certs I have, they all have father Carlo as the Informant (one giving his name as Charles, another as Theodore, and the other as Carlo... :confused:)
(The short answer is that there's no reference to Calcutta on Theodora's birth cert... :relaxed:)
Tony, thank you. I knew you must have had some birth certs. One final theory before I give up. That Calcutta reference came from somewhere.
No death reg for Theodore. That could be because he died abroad. (India?)
For that to be true then we would have to assume a false declaration on the York registration.
Are there any shipping records where the Galvanis could be found?
My last throw of the dice, I promise.
Hi Tony et al,
There was a Harriet Worton baptised 2/Apr/1838 at St.Peter's, Wolverhampton.
Parents: Benjamin & Matilda Worton (nee Miller). On the 1851 census the three are living at Graisley Hill, Wolverhampton. Harriet recorded as 13yrs. (Family Search records)
Sorry cannot help you with a possible 1854 marriage to
There is a young lady whom I believe is his gr.gr.gr.grandaughter on Facebook, Loris Galvani, presently in Somerton,Somerset.
Line:C.M.T. Galvani B: abt 1824 Italy
C.M.T. Galvani B:1864/5/Oxford
Theodore Galvani B:1892/Liverpool
Theodore Joseph Galvani B:1928 W.Derby
David Galvani B:1958 Hampstead
Loris Galvani B:? abt 1992-6
More confusion ahead
Hi Wendy - thanks for that: yes, I can see that record now in the St Peter's parish records. This could be the Harriet Worton born in Sourbridge in Oct-Dec 1837, although Wolverhampton seems a little far to go for a baptism... However, there don't seem to be any other reasonable FreeBMD birth records, assuming a fairly early baptism.
Dave - there don't appear to be any shipping records relating to Galvani to Calcutta; and various searches on various sites haven't thrown anything up relating Galvani to Calcutta either... My inclination is to put this down as some aberration: perhaps the enumerator mis-heard what was said (although how you can get Calcutta from Grape Lane, St Michael le Belfry, York is beyond my ken...). However, Carlo & his kin do have a history of 'casualness' when writing or giving information for official records, so maybe it's not that bizarre after all...
I'm going to concentrate for the moment on looking at the Catholic Church records. I've checked the churches listed as having marriage records on this site against the list of Catholic churches, and I don't think we've got any Catholic marriage records on line on this site: is that right, or have I got that wrong?
(I'll set up a separate topic to ask generally about the pitfalls or tips&tricks around finding records from Catholic Churches, partly to re-start the question, and partly because it could have wider relevance to others, if I make it general and not focussed on my own search...)
With regard to the various Harriets:
From Free BMD
Harriet Worton married Job Lloyd in Birmingham q1 1861
From GRO they had 3 children , the last in Q1 1867 all in Wolverhampton, mmn Worton
Job Lloyd died age 32 q3 1867 Wolverhampton
Harriet Lloyd married Enoch Jones q4 1868.
There was a child (GRO) q1 1870, mmn worton, in Wolverhampton
This Harriet, with Enoch and a Jones son and two Lloyd step children are in the 1881 census in Wolverhampton.
It is clear from this census that this Harriet Worton was born between mid 1837 to early 1838. She was born Bilston, which is in Wolverhampton
If someone could find either of the two marriages (or if you buy one of the certs) you would be able to identify this Harriet from her father name, and therefore eliminate her from your search.
With regard to Calcutta:
The census return says Calcutta India. That is not a mishearing. The enumerator was told that.
The time between the birth of Theodore and the registration of Theodora is much less than 2 years. Not enough time for Harriet to recover, travel to India and return with a new born child. The Suez Canal was not yet built.
So what could be a reason for someone (we do not know who answered the door to the enumerator) would say that?
The birth reg says Theodora was born 29th sept 1858. This was a critical period in Britain-India history. On 1st November 1858 Victoria became Empress of India and the British Government took over rule of India from the East India Company. This was sealed on that day by a major declaration military presence and celebration in CALCUTTA.
This was a major event and must have been a major newspaper story for months ( someone with FMP could check that). So Theodora was born at this historic time, and perhaps her teacher father taught her that. Was she the one who answered the enumerator when she was 12 and she was a very imaginative teenager? Or was it a joke by Carlo, or was it a misunderstanding by Theodora's 10 year old brother if he answered the enumerator. Take your pick.
With regard to Catholic marriages:
I am sure that Angela will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that at that time, if there was a marriage in a Catholic Church it would only be allowed if a registrar was present and the ceremony would be recorded and therefore available from GRO.
I know that Moira has found some of their children's baptisms, and I believe they are Cof E.
I hope all this helps. Perhaps you could get closer to Harriet if you follow all the possible ones forward to eliminate them.
I have searched every site I can think of trying to find Carlo Maria Theodoro Galvani, but,prior to 1861 have found nothing.
Re the birth registration for Theodore in Cambridge, 1857.
There is a burial for Charles Henry Theadore Galvani,age 0yrs, Q3 1857 in York, Yks.
Also, the birth registration in Dec Q 1864, Oxford, for Carlo Maria Theodore
Carlo Maria Theodore Galvani, baptised 23 November 1879, St. Paul, Clifton,
Bristol, Gloucester. Parents - Carlo Maria Theodore and Harriet.
Hi Moira -
Yes, I've also now found the death certificate for the earlier Theodore, born ca April '57, died later that year. (I've raised a postem with FreeBMD, so they can align their record (Galvane) with what GRO and the image on the original doc show (Galvani).)
I will dig into the record from Clifton of the slightly odd baptism of Carlo Maria Theodoro (Jr) - he'd have just turned 15 by then, his father had been dead for about a year, and his mother would be dead a month later. Maybe Carlo Jr wasn't baptised as a child.
And yes Dave, St Paul's Clifton is CofE. I do know that the family of one of the sons of Carlo Jr, Percival Galvani, was CofE, despite their Italian background, and their living in Liverpool - which was a bit unexpected: maybe Carlo Jr's baptism explains that.
Re Harriet Worton - there is another HW born in Stourbrige district in late 1837, baptised in Wolverhampton in April '38, and with Census records in Dudley (specifically, Sedgley) in 1841 & 1851. Her father died in 1853. Living in W'ton in 1871 it would have been perfectly reasonable to put Wolverhampton down as her birthplace. So her circumstances align with Harriett Galvani nee Worton. But you're right - I'll need a marriage certificate to close the deal on either of these...
Thanks Elaine for starting the thread on Catholic churches: I'm going to get the Archivists at the City Council to check, to see if they can throw anything up which has otherwise slipped through the net...
Many thanks to everyone who's thrown out a lot of ideas - I've been very busy rummaging!
A 15 year old was perfectly capable of deciding for himself to get baptised without any input from his parents.
Harriet Worton baptized 1838 Wolverhampton, parents Benjamin Worton and Matilda nee Miller
Digging deeper,there is another possible scenario:
The Benjamin Worton who died in 1853 was Harriet's grandfather. Harriet's father, also Benjamin, died 1861 August quarter at Sedgley. Matilda, the latter's wife, in 1861 is recorded as still married and living alone with Mary Worton(Benjamin snr. wife) her mother-in-law, who is recorded as widowed, in Gospel End Village, Sedgley. This is where Ben/Matilda and Harriet, in 1841 are recorded as living with Benjamin and Mary and their possible children Edward and Hannah).
There is a possibility that Matilda's hubby ran off and married again in 1854, because no sooner was he dead in 1861, than Matilda remarried in 1862 to James Lane who was possibly a widow with young children, looking for a wife to look after them. On the 1871 census Matilda is shown as a widow with possibly inherited, Lane children now in their teens and beyond, living in Tettenhall. In 1881, Matilda is still living Tettenhall along with her sister and niece.
Matilda died in Tettenhall Regis, Staffs in 1888.
Again more confounding info.
Something else to add to the confusion from GRO
Birth reg Galvany Theodore Manchester q21856. Mmn WORTON
Death reg Galvany Theodore Manchester q2 1856 age 0
Thanks Dave - I'd seen this chap but had discounted him because of the difference in surname: but the mmn of Worton is a giveaway: just shows I need to cast my net a bit wider (and use GRO as a double check on FreeBMD)
I think there's a fairly straight line for the children: Theodore †, Theodore †, Theodora Leondina, Mathilda, Carlo Theodore, Norma, Menotti †, Emily † (notwithstanding the still-baffling thing about Calcutta) - the birth (and death) dates are consistent with one another, and with the census records. I'm getting all their birth certs, to double-check all their parents' details.
I think I need to check if there are still other children not yet identified: this might help to bracket when the marriage (whether formally registered or not) took place. The reason I'm fixating on the Marriage record is to help trace back further: I think the Harriett line is now narrowed down to a couple of likely possibilities (and a couple of other more remote maybes), but not established with certainty; I'm still struggling to go back further with Carlo though. I'll either find something that will help or I won't... :unamused:
Tony, according to GRO index Emily was illegitimate.
They moved around so much I wonder if your Carlo was hiding from something
This is a long shot but I am confused by a couple of records in 1854. Search Free BMD marriages for surname Teodoro in 1854..May be no connection but a few coincidences.
Hi Dave - I've now got Emily's birth certificate, and yes, she does appear to be illegitimate (no father's details on the cert). (Btw - how could you tell that from the GRO index? Does the lack of a mother's maiden name indicate that?)
It turns out that Emily was the child of Theodora Leondina - not Carlo & Harriett...
Yes, the Teodoro thing is a bit odd (seems to have two entries in different districts for the same marriage) - it could relate to Carlo, but it's a big stretch...
Tony, the GRO Index says there is no MMN for Emily. That usually means illegitimate. It could just possibly mean that the mmn was illegible so not absolutely certainly illegit. Having spotted that I guessed it was probably Theodora because the only other possibility was Matilda, and she was only 16 so less likely.
Dont know if this piece of information might help with your Galvani query.
I was trawling through Ancestry for possible burials for DaveT and your Galvani's.
Though the deaths are registered (FreeBMD) I could not spot any actual burials.
However I wonder if the NBI might help if anyone has it. GALVANI. (1856-1880)
Another possible helper on Ancestry was a marriage 12th Sep 1908 in Popoli, Italy.
of Armida Maria Francesca de Michele & Carlo L.N. Galvani.
There was an Italian Document noted as well which I have sent on to Dave.
Though not a Sheffield connection I know some of our readers of the Forum love a challenge. I think DaveT is one of them. LOL.
Elaine in Ottawa.
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