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Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Leisa,
Helen has done a superb job in proving beyond doubt that your photo was taken in mid 1908 by demonstrating that Bernard Harrop (Sergeant) and his wife with their two young babies must be the couple at centre. They are a perfect fit. I can now provide much more evidence and identify the second uniform and more besides.
Your picture has 40 individuals visible.
In 1908 the following list of Harrop and extended families were the only ones alive.
It is a list of 39 people. That is close to 40.

Sarah Elizabeth Foweather (Harrop) 47 Husband Albert 47
George Barnsley Harrop 46
Jessie Llewellyn (Harrop) 43 Husband William 47
Maurice Harrop 37 Wife Kate (Maxfield) 32
Charles Harrop 36 Wife Ellen E (Sylvester)36
Charlotte Furness (Harrop) 33 Husband Charles 37
Flora Howard (Harrop) 31 Husband Albert 32
Harold Harrop 29
Bernard Harrop 26 Wife Florence Lucy (Bond) 25
Albert Foweather 26 Wife Beatrice (Barber) 23
Emma Harrop 23 23
Jessie E Foweather 23
Ethel Foweather 21
Arthur S Foweather 19
May Foweather 15
Cissy Harrop 13
Elsie May Llewellyn 12
Dorothy Harrop 11
Charles E Furness 10
Ellen Maude Harrop 9
Amy Harrop 7
Constance Llewellyn 7
Marion Howard 7
Muriel Irene Furness 7
Muriel Harrop 5
Lottie Howard 4
Jessie Harrop 3
Jessie Foweather 2
Connie Harrop 1
Florrie Jessie Harrop 12-15 months
Bernard Harold Harrop 3-6 months

Because of the varied ages and genders we can pretty certainly identify a large number of the people in your photo.
There are 8 couples on the list and we would expect that the older ladies would be in more sombre attire (which at the time would be defined as old fashioned) because they had spent much of their lives in the Victorian era.
There are 8 couples on the list, and on your photo there are 7 clearly defined ones.
The 3 older seated ladies must be (from l to f) Ellen E Harrop (you know), Jessie Harrop, and Sarah E Foweather (the matriarch) Each has their husband just behind and left (Charles Harrop is tall).
The reason I say Sarah E is the right hand of the 3 is because her son Arthur (19) is behind her and next to his father.
Maurice and his wife Kate are right behind Bernard and Florence. Maurice is younger, tall like his brother Charles and has similar features.
The other 2 couples (back left and back right) must be Florence and Flora. Not sure which way round but someone may be able to decide based on the different ages of their husbands.
The tall man alone very back left is clearly George Barnsley Harrop, features, tall, and dressed similar to his brother Charles. The lone man centre back must be Harold Harrop (or possibly Albert Foweather Junior)
So what are we left with?
The lady seated right with the older baby on her knee must be Beatrice Foweather with her 2 year old.
The three ladies in a triangle back left and the young lady to our right of Maurice must be the 3 Foweather girls and Emma Harrop. I will let you decide based on age.
The two girls at the right side, one seated and one standing, are clearly sisters so must be Cissy and Dorothy Harrop.
Now we have the 10 children across the bottom. I shall let you decide which are the 4 Harrop sisters, the 2 Llewellyn sisters, the two Howard sisters and the Furness girl, sister of Charles Furness seated left

That means we have identified 38 people on the photo using the list of relatives. But there were 39 on the list. Either Harold Harrop or Albert Foweather junior (policeman) is missing. If Albert was there, surely he would be behind his seated wife? Why would he not be there? Because he was on duty? I suggest that Albert was there, and he was taking the photo. You said that there are no photographer marks on the back. That would imply a private photo. Who is more likely than a policeman to be practiced in using a camera, and be able to borrow a good one?
So who is left? The second uniform (at the back, corporal), the older lady standing, second right from Maurice. Who are they? There are no more family members left?
To get to this venue the Furness family of four have travelled from Blackpool (Charles was Manager of the tram system). Not a big journey by train.
But Bernard and his wife and their two tiny babies have travelled from Canterbury,. changing trains in London and probably Birmingham. That would be logistically impossible if they travelled alone. All the baggage, breast feeding, holding the babies,
to name but a few problems. No mother would let that happen. There must have been both male and female company with them.
If we look at Florence Lucy’s family we discover:
Her parents Arthur Joseph Bond and Lucy A Williams married in Canterbury in 1879 and their first daughter was born in Q4 1879. In the 1871 census Corporal Arthur Bond (28) and his wife Lucy are housed in family quarters in a very large barracks in Kent. Florence Lucy was born a couple of years later and another girl later. Arthur J Jr was born in 1887 near Canterbury. By 1891 they are no longer with the military.
However more children follow and, in early 1900 a son is born and registered as Henry George Mafeking Bond. This was a serious military family.
In 1908 Arthur J Bond Junior was 21. He must be the 2nd uniform. And the extra lady? His mother or his sister (I favour mother on perceived age). They must have travelled from Canterbury to Sheffield with the couple and their babies to alleviate the enormous logistical problems on the journey.
I cannot find absolute proof of Arthur’s army career. However I note that he has disappeared from the family in 1911 and there is no sign of him in the country. There is an Arthur J in Kent in the 1939 Register. His birth year is one year out. Was he military? Who has access please?

That is it. Everything fits together very neatly.
If you still wish to find descendants, I suggest that you follow all the identified young people forward then try to contact them through trees or social media (as Helen suggested for the Foweathers). Clearly just putting the photo up on this site has not found anyone. It will take harder work than that. Unfortunately, apart from Arthur Foweather and Charles Furness they are all girls (2 Howards, 2 Llewellyns, 1 Furness, 3 Foweathers and Emma Harrop) (I assume you are already in contact with the descendants of your (Sylvester) Harrops.
Good luck with it. It has been an interesting exercise.
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Elaine

that's right about the Barnsleys. George Barnsley had a huge factory and a couple of Barnsleys were Master Cutlers.

George Barnsley Tools - factory is derelict now but when I was there last week they have been doing some work there and I think they put in home units.

cheers

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Dave,

My Arthur died in 1901. So the Arhur with Spick wife is not mine.

I have a few certificates on my tree I think but none I've needed to obtain as yet.

Which ones are you after?

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Elaine

Charles and Ellen Eliza were married in the parish church now cathedral in Sheffield on 30/1/1894.

I have no baptism records for any of the Harrop girls.

cheers

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Ok Leisa, thanks. That eliminates Arthur. Do you know what happened to George Barnsley Harrop. I cannot find a marriage. I have a death in his 70s if I am right.
I am working on the principle that you need to trace people who have photos of their ancestors who are on that picture. Those people alive today will be descendants of those children on the picture. Those descendants will, like you, be grandchildren of those small children. They could be anywhere in the world.. Therefore, if we can identify the names(without necessarily identifying them on the picture ) we may find people who have them as ancestors. Unfortunately they are almost all girls so that just makes it more difficult, but not impossible.
I have already identified one person, almost by accident. 10 years ago I contacted someone on Genes Reunited about one of our common ancestors in Sheffield. She allowed me to see her tree at the time. It turns out that in her tree she also has Henry And Elizabeth and some of those children I named. You may be able to contact her. I shall not name her on this forum. I shall send you a private email with those details.
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi Leisa,

"Looking at original photo (which has names written on the actual photo) We have Ellen Eliza holding Connie. In front of her on the ground is Amy move 3 kids along and we have Jessie being held by god knows who. Next is Dorothy and then Ellen Maud."


As both grandmothers are called Ellen Eliza which one are you referring too?

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Elaine

Only 1 is Ellen Eliza Nee Silvester Harrop

The others are Eliza and Elizabeth.

Eliza Condon
Elizabeth Barnsley


Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Good sleuthing Dave and Helen.


Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

One final piece of evidence:

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images4/7dg1907b.jpg

The link will take you to a photograph of the NCO group of the 7th Dragoon Guards.
The photograph was taken in 1907 in CANTERBURY
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi David,
You suggested to Leisa that she could try to find a descendant of people in the photograph.
I am a descendant and the original photograph was given to me by my Aunt Jessie – centre front row. I passed the original to Leisa but have retained a copy myself.
My mother was Connie and is seated on her mother’s knee at the left-hand side of the photograph. Her mother’s name was Ellen Eliza Harrop (nee Sylvester), and her husband Charles is behind her. These, of course, are my grandparents.
At grandmother’s feet is Amy Sylvester Harrop, and to the right passing three children we come back to Jessie Harrop and next, supporting her, is her sister Dorothy – the only blonde amongst the seven sisters. Next is Leisa’s grandmother Maud Helen and then Muriel Harrop. The eldest sister, Cissie Alma, is the child standing at the extreme right of the picture.
Also in this photograph, but unfortunately I can’t remember where, is Ada Sylvester, my grandmother’s sister. It could be the one sat on the right with Cissie’s hands on her shoulders.
My Aunt Jessie gave me the original photograph over twenty years ago and pointed out the relevant people.
My mother Connie told me that the two men to the right of Charles Harrop were two of his brothers. However, I cannot swear to this.
Finally, I am sure that this photograph was taken in the spring of 1908 as my mother was born on 11th July 1907.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi
I am helping my Nanna follow up on some family history.
Her name is Patricia. And Cissie is her mother. I am unable to see the picture.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

I've replied to you via your email.
cheers