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Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi Dave,
I would respectfully disagree that the young ladies to the right are nurses. As an old school nurse, albeit not as old as this photo, and a Canadian nurse at that, I am certain that no respectable nurse of that era would pose in a formal photograph without her cap and apron. Even in the early days of my career, a nursing cap was an essential part of the uniform and identified not only that you were a nurse, but where you trained as a nurse. I will suggest that one of the young men in uniform is Albert Henry Foweather. Charles Harrop's sister Sarah Elizabeth Harrop married Albert Foweather, see parish records on this site, and they had 3 daughters and 2 sons. Albert Henry (1882),Jessie Elizabeth (1885), Ethel Greaves (1887), May (1893)and Frederick (1896). Some of the young ladies on the right may be these young ladies as they would have been in their late teens or early 20's when this photo was taken and were still single. Albert Henry Foweather was married to Beatrice Barber in 1906 and he was a police constable. They had 2 daughters at this time: Jessie (1906) and possibly Elsie born in the fall of 1908 so not sure if she had arrived yet when this photo was taken.
Helen C.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Elaine

that's right about the Barnsleys. George Barnsley had a huge factory and a couple of Barnsleys were Master Cutlers.

George Barnsley Tools - factory is derelict now but when I was there last week they have been doing some work there and I think they put in home units.

cheers

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Dave,

My Arthur died in 1901. So the Arhur with Spick wife is not mine.

I have a few certificates on my tree I think but none I've needed to obtain as yet.

Which ones are you after?

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Elaine

Charles and Ellen Eliza were married in the parish church now cathedral in Sheffield on 30/1/1894.

I have no baptism records for any of the Harrop girls.

cheers

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Ok Leisa, thanks. That eliminates Arthur. Do you know what happened to George Barnsley Harrop. I cannot find a marriage. I have a death in his 70s if I am right.
I am working on the principle that you need to trace people who have photos of their ancestors who are on that picture. Those people alive today will be descendants of those children on the picture. Those descendants will, like you, be grandchildren of those small children. They could be anywhere in the world.. Therefore, if we can identify the names(without necessarily identifying them on the picture ) we may find people who have them as ancestors. Unfortunately they are almost all girls so that just makes it more difficult, but not impossible.
I have already identified one person, almost by accident. 10 years ago I contacted someone on Genes Reunited about one of our common ancestors in Sheffield. She allowed me to see her tree at the time. It turns out that in her tree she also has Henry And Elizabeth and some of those children I named. You may be able to contact her. I shall not name her on this forum. I shall send you a private email with those details.
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi Leisa,

"Looking at original photo (which has names written on the actual photo) We have Ellen Eliza holding Connie. In front of her on the ground is Amy move 3 kids along and we have Jessie being held by god knows who. Next is Dorothy and then Ellen Maud."


As both grandmothers are called Ellen Eliza which one are you referring too?

Elaine.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Elaine

Only 1 is Ellen Eliza Nee Silvester Harrop

The others are Eliza and Elizabeth.

Eliza Condon
Elizabeth Barnsley


Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Helen, absolutely fantastic. That is the big breakthrough. It fits perfectly because it not only explains the police uniform but it also explains why he, not the mother, is holding Elsie . His wife imust be holding holding their older child. That means the lady on his right as we look must be Beatrice his wife and on her knee is 2 year old Jessie.
If we have Elsie's baptism record, we have the exact date of the photo..

That opens up new avenues for search. Is the other uniform Albert's brother?
Who is the other baby , who must have been born in 1907. From the Barber side? .That will identify its mother.
There must be members of Beatrice Barber's family, Her parents? If still alive.
Three of the girls on the front row are likely to be Constance May Llewellyn (7), Marion Howard (7)and Lottie Howard (4), maybe the others are from the Barber side.
A lot of loose ends to tie up. Who wants to join in , or does Leisa want to do it herself.

Over to you Leisa

Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Thank you Helen,

FYI Jessie Foweather was born 13.4.1906 would have been aged 2 or approaching 2 when photo was taken. Have no idea on the month the photo was taken.

Elsie Foweather was born 16.9.1908. Question is policeman Foweather holding a 2 year old or a wee baby?

I can confirm Alberth Henry Foweather was a police man after leaving the army.

cheers

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi again,
In pointing out that Albert Henry Foweather was a police officer, I hope I'm not sending you off down a false path. Albert could be the uniformed gent seated in the front row or he could be the uniformed gent in the back row. I do feel that correctly identifying the uniformed gent in the front row is key to solving what the occasion is and who the people around him are. Notice that he is the only man seated and he is seated front and center. If he weren't central to whatever this occasion is, then as an officer and a gentleman, he would be standing to the back or to the side with the other fellas and one of the ladies who is standing behind him, would be seated. Initially I had thought that this gentleman and the lady immediately to his right, were a couple and that the babies they are each holding were twins. However, Albert Henry and Beatrice Foweather did not have twins and for that matter, I can't see any Harrop twins registered either. I would lean more to the idea that Beatrice is the lady immediately to his left with the child on her lap being 2 year old Jessie Foweather. However, this raises the problem of who are the 2 infants, one in the arms of the officer and one in the arms of the lady next to him. Infants do not have the muscle tone to hold their head up independently until at least 3 months of age. Both of these infants are clearly holding their heads up on their own so they are both between the ages of 3 months and 12 months. If Elsie Foweather was born Sept. 16, 1908, then the earliest she would have been holding her head up would have been mid Dec. 1908. You have already stated that this photo was taken in 1908, but if Elsie is the infant on the officer's knee, then the only time this photo could have been taken would have been the end of Dec. It does not appear from the attire of all in this photo, that the photo was taken outside in Dec. So possibly the photo was taken earlier in 1908, and Beatrice is still pregnant with Elsie. But that still leaves the question of who are the babies being held by the man and woman in the center of the photo. There still is not enough information to positively identify who this man is.
I admit I am a real dinosaur when it comes to social media, but maybe you need to attempt to contact any Foweather or Harrop families still living in Sheffield via Facebook or Twitter. A simple Google search of either name in Sheffield, reveals at least 2 Harrop's with telephone numbers listed in Sheffield, there are at least 7 Foweather's on electoral roles for Sheffield and several mentions of Facebook postings by Foweather's and Harrop's with Sheffield in the text. If worse comes to worse, try phone or regular mail. There is an entry on Rootschat forum dated 2014 from someone also researching this Foweather family, perhaps you could contact them and collaborate. I'll keep looking into this as time allows, but I'm afraid that's all I have at the moment.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Following on from Helen's weather reference, 1908 was a record year for the lateness of snow in the south of England. There were very heavy falls in late April and there were very deep frosts in the north.
Is it my imagination or are there traces of snow or ice on the wall tops in the background of the picture, and on the bush at the back, left of centre?
If the front policeman is married to the lady to his right (left as we look at it) then their two children must have been born in very quick succession.
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

New proposal:
Charles Harrop's brother, Bernard Harrop born 1882 was in the military. I don't have access to FMP to see his service record. But he seems to have enlisted about 1900. In 1901 he is in Cheriton, Kent. There are several newpaper reports of Corporal Bernard Harrop being involved in action in Koonstad, South Africa. He then became dangerously ill with "enteric ?" in Apr. 1902 and was presumably sent home. He married Florence Lucy Bond in 1905 in Canterbury, Kent and they had 2 children 13 months apart. Flora Jessie Harrop born Nov. 7, 1906 in Kent and Bernard Harold Harrop born Dec. 30, 1907 in Kent. By 1911, Bernard along with Florence Lucy and children are posted to India. They returned to live in Sheffield. Bernard became a postman and was very involved in bowling in Sheffield but died age 48 in 1930 and was buried in Crookes Cemetery. His widow never remarried and was buried with him in 1974 age 91. I propose that the uniformed gent in the front row is Bernard and the lady to his right is Florence Lucy. Bernard Howard is the infant that Bernard is holding as he would have been old enough to hold his head up by the spring or summer of 1908, and Florence is holding Flora Jessie who would be around 16 to 18 months of age. I would suggest that the family gathered for this photo prior to Bernard and family being posted to India. If that is so, then all the people in this photo should be Harrop's or Silvester's as Florence Lucy's family were in Kent. If you agree with this then my suggestion would be to try to contact the descendants of Bernard Harrop to see if they have photos to corroborate my theory. Flora Jessie married Arthur Bridges in Sheffield in 1933 and died in 1998. She had 2 sons born in 1936 and 1945 who may still be living. Bernard Howard married Eileen Butcheer in 1937 and died in 1991. He had 5 children, 3 sons and 2 daughters between 1941 and 1953, the one daughter's burial is on this site. Bernard Harold also served in the army in 1927. Just a guess, but possible that Bernard Sr. died at such a young age due to whatever illness had struck him down in 1902. Can any one explain the difference between a military uniform and a police uniform? That may help with confirming this gentleman.
Helen C

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Helen, wow.
On close inspection the 2 uniforms are definitely military and almost identical. The only difference being the front one is sergeant and the back one corporal. There have never been corporals in the police. Also a policeman in those days would have had his number printed around his collar.
So the policeman was a red herring. -Albert Foweather must be there in civvies.
It looks like a large number of the people can now be pretty certainly identified from age, family likeness and association with the people around them. They are all Bernard's siblings and their families, with the possible exception of Charlotte Furness Nee Harrop and her husband Charles and their son Charles (who was born in Plymouth in 1898).
There still remains an extra family with matriarch seated probably third from left , her husband probably third from left behind her and a group of people , mainly female, at the right side, including the couple at back right.
Who is the second uniform?
I suggest he is brother at arms with Bernard, is unmarried and he is also going to foreign climes. Therefore his family is also in the gathering. They are the ones displaying the strange neckwear.

Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Leisa,
Do you know who wrote those names on your photo? There is clearlly something not right. In 1908 Maud was 9 years old and Amy was 7 years old. The girl labelled Amy looks a lot older than the one labelled Maud. Also the child labelled Maud is clearly much younger than 9. The names of G dad and G ma would indicate that the person who wrote them was either one of your parents or one of your uncles or aunts. If that is the case then they should be right , having seen their grandparents grown up., so they would recognise them. However they would be guessing about the children because they would have only seen them grown up, not as babies.
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Dave

Great Grandmother Harrop told a great grandchild the photo was taken in 1908.

A granddaughter of Ellen Eliza Harrop nee Silvester wrote the names on the photo.

I had thought it was earlier than 1908 because my grandmother Maude looks much younger than 9.

A cousin and I have been looking at uniforms and we are of the view that the middle bloke can't be a policeman because he does not have a number on his collar.

Dragoons is a possibility because we had Harrops in the Dragoons.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Leisa, thank you.
I am sure the ids written for the children are wrong. I think only the one for Jessie is correct
I think you will find that Cissy 13 and Dorothy 11 (standing) are the 2 obvious sisters at the right hand side. That makes Ellen Maud 9 the one at front left (currently labelled Amy).
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

David,

Disagree without a doubt that is Maud - When I saw the photo without names written on it, I immediately recognised my grandmother. No mistaking her.

If anything the date may be wrong.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Leisa,
I have to say I do not understand how any grandchild could recognise their grandmother as a baby, unless they have a photo of that baby positively identified. I remember showing my grandchildren photos of me age 4, in my aunt's arms, and me at 10 in a group of 10 year old boys. None of my 5 grandchildren could pick me out, and when I told them they did not believe.Do your cousins agree?

Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Leisa,
Helen has done a superb job in proving beyond doubt that your photo was taken in mid 1908 by demonstrating that Bernard Harrop (Sergeant) and his wife with their two young babies must be the couple at centre. They are a perfect fit. I can now provide much more evidence and identify the second uniform and more besides.
Your picture has 40 individuals visible.
In 1908 the following list of Harrop and extended families were the only ones alive.
It is a list of 39 people. That is close to 40.

Sarah Elizabeth Foweather (Harrop) 47 Husband Albert 47
George Barnsley Harrop 46
Jessie Llewellyn (Harrop) 43 Husband William 47
Maurice Harrop 37 Wife Kate (Maxfield) 32
Charles Harrop 36 Wife Ellen E (Sylvester)36
Charlotte Furness (Harrop) 33 Husband Charles 37
Flora Howard (Harrop) 31 Husband Albert 32
Harold Harrop 29
Bernard Harrop 26 Wife Florence Lucy (Bond) 25
Albert Foweather 26 Wife Beatrice (Barber) 23
Emma Harrop 23 23
Jessie E Foweather 23
Ethel Foweather 21
Arthur S Foweather 19
May Foweather 15
Cissy Harrop 13
Elsie May Llewellyn 12
Dorothy Harrop 11
Charles E Furness 10
Ellen Maude Harrop 9
Amy Harrop 7
Constance Llewellyn 7
Marion Howard 7
Muriel Irene Furness 7
Muriel Harrop 5
Lottie Howard 4
Jessie Harrop 3
Jessie Foweather 2
Connie Harrop 1
Florrie Jessie Harrop 12-15 months
Bernard Harold Harrop 3-6 months

Because of the varied ages and genders we can pretty certainly identify a large number of the people in your photo.
There are 8 couples on the list and we would expect that the older ladies would be in more sombre attire (which at the time would be defined as old fashioned) because they had spent much of their lives in the Victorian era.
There are 8 couples on the list, and on your photo there are 7 clearly defined ones.
The 3 older seated ladies must be (from l to f) Ellen E Harrop (you know), Jessie Harrop, and Sarah E Foweather (the matriarch) Each has their husband just behind and left (Charles Harrop is tall).
The reason I say Sarah E is the right hand of the 3 is because her son Arthur (19) is behind her and next to his father.
Maurice and his wife Kate are right behind Bernard and Florence. Maurice is younger, tall like his brother Charles and has similar features.
The other 2 couples (back left and back right) must be Florence and Flora. Not sure which way round but someone may be able to decide based on the different ages of their husbands.
The tall man alone very back left is clearly George Barnsley Harrop, features, tall, and dressed similar to his brother Charles. The lone man centre back must be Harold Harrop (or possibly Albert Foweather Junior)
So what are we left with?
The lady seated right with the older baby on her knee must be Beatrice Foweather with her 2 year old.
The three ladies in a triangle back left and the young lady to our right of Maurice must be the 3 Foweather girls and Emma Harrop. I will let you decide based on age.
The two girls at the right side, one seated and one standing, are clearly sisters so must be Cissy and Dorothy Harrop.
Now we have the 10 children across the bottom. I shall let you decide which are the 4 Harrop sisters, the 2 Llewellyn sisters, the two Howard sisters and the Furness girl, sister of Charles Furness seated left

That means we have identified 38 people on the photo using the list of relatives. But there were 39 on the list. Either Harold Harrop or Albert Foweather junior (policeman) is missing. If Albert was there, surely he would be behind his seated wife? Why would he not be there? Because he was on duty? I suggest that Albert was there, and he was taking the photo. You said that there are no photographer marks on the back. That would imply a private photo. Who is more likely than a policeman to be practiced in using a camera, and be able to borrow a good one?
So who is left? The second uniform (at the back, corporal), the older lady standing, second right from Maurice. Who are they? There are no more family members left?
To get to this venue the Furness family of four have travelled from Blackpool (Charles was Manager of the tram system). Not a big journey by train.
But Bernard and his wife and their two tiny babies have travelled from Canterbury,. changing trains in London and probably Birmingham. That would be logistically impossible if they travelled alone. All the baggage, breast feeding, holding the babies,
to name but a few problems. No mother would let that happen. There must have been both male and female company with them.
If we look at Florence Lucy’s family we discover:
Her parents Arthur Joseph Bond and Lucy A Williams married in Canterbury in 1879 and their first daughter was born in Q4 1879. In the 1871 census Corporal Arthur Bond (28) and his wife Lucy are housed in family quarters in a very large barracks in Kent. Florence Lucy was born a couple of years later and another girl later. Arthur J Jr was born in 1887 near Canterbury. By 1891 they are no longer with the military.
However more children follow and, in early 1900 a son is born and registered as Henry George Mafeking Bond. This was a serious military family.
In 1908 Arthur J Bond Junior was 21. He must be the 2nd uniform. And the extra lady? His mother or his sister (I favour mother on perceived age). They must have travelled from Canterbury to Sheffield with the couple and their babies to alleviate the enormous logistical problems on the journey.
I cannot find absolute proof of Arthur’s army career. However I note that he has disappeared from the family in 1911 and there is no sign of him in the country. There is an Arthur J in Kent in the 1939 Register. His birth year is one year out. Was he military? Who has access please?

That is it. Everything fits together very neatly.
If you still wish to find descendants, I suggest that you follow all the identified young people forward then try to contact them through trees or social media (as Helen suggested for the Foweathers). Clearly just putting the photo up on this site has not found anyone. It will take harder work than that. Unfortunately, apart from Arthur Foweather and Charles Furness they are all girls (2 Howards, 2 Llewellyns, 1 Furness, 3 Foweathers and Emma Harrop) (I assume you are already in contact with the descendants of your (Sylvester) Harrops.
Good luck with it. It has been an interesting exercise.
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Good sleuthing Dave and Helen.


Elaine in Ottawa.

Instant Messenger: Skype

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

One final piece of evidence:

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images4/7dg1907b.jpg

The link will take you to a photograph of the NCO group of the 7th Dragoon Guards.
The photograph was taken in 1907 in CANTERBURY
Dave

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi David,
You suggested to Leisa that she could try to find a descendant of people in the photograph.
I am a descendant and the original photograph was given to me by my Aunt Jessie – centre front row. I passed the original to Leisa but have retained a copy myself.
My mother was Connie and is seated on her mother’s knee at the left-hand side of the photograph. Her mother’s name was Ellen Eliza Harrop (nee Sylvester), and her husband Charles is behind her. These, of course, are my grandparents.
At grandmother’s feet is Amy Sylvester Harrop, and to the right passing three children we come back to Jessie Harrop and next, supporting her, is her sister Dorothy – the only blonde amongst the seven sisters. Next is Leisa’s grandmother Maud Helen and then Muriel Harrop. The eldest sister, Cissie Alma, is the child standing at the extreme right of the picture.
Also in this photograph, but unfortunately I can’t remember where, is Ada Sylvester, my grandmother’s sister. It could be the one sat on the right with Cissie’s hands on her shoulders.
My Aunt Jessie gave me the original photograph over twenty years ago and pointed out the relevant people.
My mother Connie told me that the two men to the right of Charles Harrop were two of his brothers. However, I cannot swear to this.
Finally, I am sure that this photograph was taken in the spring of 1908 as my mother was born on 11th July 1907.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

Hi
I am helping my Nanna follow up on some family history.
Her name is Patricia. And Cissie is her mother. I am unable to see the picture.

Re: Barnsley, Harrop & Silvester/Sylvester families

I've replied to you via your email.
cheers