Hi

I wonder if someone may be able to help me with this?

One of my ancestors was John Hall. He married Lydia Kay (who is from Sheffield) in Manchester in 1834.
The couple do not appear on the 1851 census but they do appear on the 1861 and 1871 census.
On the 1861 census John puts down that his birthplace is Lancashire. On the 1871 census he puts Lancashire again but with a place that looks something like Houghton Waters.
I cannot seem to confirm this place and was wondering if someone else could take a look?
The couple are living in Sheffield throughout the census's.
I did find a baptism for a John Hall to a William & Elizabeth in Blackburn (from the Lancashire parish clerk site) which states the abode as Houghton. I just need confirmation.

Thanks
Rich

Email  

Rich
On the 1871 census - John Halls birth place reads
Lancashire Houghton,with waters placed above.
I haven't found a map with the location of Houghton Waters on though,it might be an old, locally known term for a location in Houghton Lancashire.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Kind regards Brian.

Thanks for the reply Brian

Would you agree that the Houghton that he is talking about is the one near Blackburn. My problem is that there is a Haughton near Denton which is near Manchester (where John married). I know there is another John Hall form this place born around the same time.
Annoying!!!

Thanks again

Email  

Rich
I wouldn't like to speculate on which Houghton it is.
I would suggest you post the topic on the roots chat message forum (for Lancashire),this will open the post to a wider audience,and there are many out there who will have the resources to answer your question.
Roots chat is Ancestry hosted,free to join,and use,
It will be interesting if you could advise of any progress,and I will don my thinking cap on this issue.
Kind regards Brian.

I have taken your advice and posted on rootschat.
Hopefully someone can enlighten us to where Houghton Waters is.

Email  

Rich
The only reason,I have suggested this,is the resources out there in the genealogy world are at times amazing.
And you will ,obtain a number of replies,from individuals with sound knowledge of the county,and associated records.
I am keen to know what detail you do obtain.
Kind regards Brian.

Rich
Take a look at your Roots chat replies,I have made a comment and, another reponse to it probably clears thing up somewhat.
Kindest regards Brian.

I've got a copy of the 1st ordnance survey map of the Bolton and Blackburn area, and Hoghton is on it. (The map is of the area in 1843.) I've had a look with the magnifying glass. I can see places called Hoghton, Hoghton Tower, Hoghton Lodge, Hoghton school and Hoghton Chapelry but I can't see anywhere nearby to them called Hoghton Waters. The closest place to Hoghton that I can see with the name Water in it is Moulden Water near Feniscowles, and then a bit further east of Feniscowles a little place called Waterloo.

Looking for anything else to do with waters near there - there is a canal running close by Hoghton, and the map does have a reservoir on it, but that reservoir is much closer to Tockholes than Hoghton

Heths

Rich / Heather
It appears that John Hall was born in( Gorton)- waters
If you look at the Roots chat message forum for Lancashire - you will seen why my reply ,and suggestion provoked- an explanation.
Kind regards Brian.

Hi Brian

I've tried 3 times to post this and Google chrome stalled on me each time!

Took a look at the rootschat message and I''m not sure that the Gorton one is the same John Hall as this one. The message says the Gorton one was born 1812 with parents John (a hatter) and Hannah. There is a John Hall born 1812 Haughton living in the Haughton district of Ashton-under-Lyne in the 1851 census (Thats close to Gorton.) He is living with a mother Hannah and he's a hat body maker. So I reckon that one is more likely to be the Gorton bloke than the carter living in Sheffield.

Heths

Hi Heather
I think you are on to something here,I did think that the place of birth - noted on the 1871- of Houghton Waters- could have been a local term for a particular area,and had been entered incorrectly,as I was unable to locate the location- on a map.
Kind regards Brian

Thanks for taking the time to look for me

Like i posted on rootschat, the John ffrom Gorton isn't mine due to the fact that he actually appears on a census with his mother.

It's a bit of a thick brickwall to knock down this one isn't it?
I'm still thinking the baptism in Blackburn in which it states the abode was Houghton is the greatest possibility, although i can't prove it

It's a shame John and the family are missing on the 1851 census because he may have given more details on his place of birth, typical!

Rich
The fact that one can't locate the family on the 1851,is strange.
It must be down to a transcription error.
All effort is required ,to attempt again to locate them on the 1851.
As for a brickwall- tou ain't joking.
Kind regards Brian.

What makes it worse is that i actually know the address the family lived at in 1851. there children where baptized either side of the said date and on the baptism records it states that the abode was 23 Henry Street (I think this was Long Henry Street because they lived in the Park area of Sheffield and the children were baptized at Park St John).

Rich
I have checked 23 Henry Street Sheffield(St Philips Parish) , on the 1851- and the family are not at that location.
As for Long Henry Street,I am unable to locate this.
Kind regards Brian.

Just had a look on an old map and Long Henry Street ran off South Street and parallel to Talbot Street. It dosn't look like it's there anymore

Just my luck!
Cheers Brian

Rich
I wonder if Tony,or Hugh,might come up with a brain wave on this issue ?.
Kind regards Brian.

They were still on Henry Street in 1850 - one of their children was buried from that address that year at St John Park.

Heths

Rich / Heather
I wonder if there were two Henry Streets,the one I looked at was in St Philips Parish,I was unable to locate Long Henry Street on 1851.
Kind regards Brian.

Hi Rich & Brian,

Looking at my Street Guide (1969)...

Henry St ran off Infirmary Rd.......

Long Henry St (Park) was where you said Rich but I believe that those "********" Flats at Park Hill were given names of the streets they had replaced so in 1969 it states Long Henry Row.(Flats).

Elaine in Ottawa.

Email   Skype   Website

Thanks for looking Elaine

Why can't we seem to find the address in 1851 then. I wonder if the street was missed out by accident or something. Seems weird why i can't find nobody living on that street in the 1851 census.

Hi Rich,

My guess would be that the Long Henry Street had not been built in 1851.

My reason for saying this is as I transcribe the baptisms for
St John's new roads keep popping up every so often so my guess would be that the Park area was still being built as the population of Sheffield grew hugely at this time.

I have looked at the burials for St John's and just entered Long Henry Street and the first burial with that address is 1855.

So I would think my guess could be correct.

Regards.


Elaine in Ottawa.



My Guess is wrong......just checked the baptisms out and the street seems to have been known a just Henry St......
There are seven of his & Lydia's children listed under Parish Registers. You can check it yourself.

Email   Skype   Website

Just another suggestion.....

If you get hold of one of the Allan Godfrey Maps for Sheffield dated 1903. (cost about two pounds)

It shows you Long Henry St and the area in great detail.
Makes for interesting reading.

It's Yorkshire Sheet 294.08
Old Ordnance Survey Maps.

You can get them on line.

Regards. Elaine in Ottawa.

Further suggestion might be to contact the Local Studies Library and see if Long Henry St (Henry St) is missing on the 1851 census.

Email   Skype   Website

Rich, please can you name some of the children and year of births also what year was John and Lydia born. Just wondering if the street was being built around that time if people had to move out for a bit. Do not forget that the children might have been born much earlier than the baptism so could have been born at a different address. I am therefore wondering if the family are on the census of 1851 and for some unknown reason the name has been mistranscribed - could they for instance have gone back to Manchester (where they married) perhaps did a relative of Lydia die around then and gone back for a funeral? John

John and Lydia were both born circa 1813. John in Lancashire and Lydia in Sheffield.
In 1841 the family were living at Norfolk Street by 1861 the family lived on Rhodes Street.But on three of the baptism of their children in the late 1840's early 1850's it states they were living on Henry Street (long Henry Street). They obviously lived in the Sheffield Park area throughout.
Their chidren are:
Elizabeth 1841 Sheffield
Sarah Ann 1844 Henry Street
Ellen 1847 Henry Street
John Henry Kay Hall 1849 Henry Street
Emma Kay Hall 1851 Henry Street
Lydia Kay Hall 1853 Henry Street
Mary Hall 1854 Henry Street
Henry Hall 1858 Rhodes Street

Because daughter Emma was actually born in March 1851 it would makes sense that the family would still be living on Henry Street (Long Henry Street) on the 1851 census. Can anyone actually find anything to do with this address at all on the 1851 census?

Thanks again everyone

Hi Rich,

What is rather odd about this family is that the one child (Emma Kay Hall) born 1851 in Sheffield Park was not baptised at St John's Park as all the others were. Sorry Elizabeth was at the Cathedral. (1841).

23 Henry St is given for Lydia in 1853.

Was Emma born around the time of the census could that be the reason for them not being on the 1851 census.

Looking at the map Long Henry St runs right from the back of St
Lukes Dwyers Hill to Duke St. So there is a possibility she could have been baptised there.

I still think an e-mail to the Local Studies Library maybe your best bet to check if they know of a reason for Long Henry or Henry St not being on the census.

BUT people were missed for whatever reason.

Elaine in Ottawa.

Email   Skype   Website

Elaine
Henry Street is indeed on the 1851 census,but the family are not at 23 - Henry Street,and I have checked all other abodes listed on this street.
Long Henry Street doesn't appear on fmp- when one conducts a search by address on the 1851 census.
Kindest regards Brian.

You are right. Emma Hall was baptized at Sheffield Cathedral (which is a bit strange to say most of the other children either side of her were baptized at St Johns). On her baptism it states that she was born on the 20th of March 1851. This is only ten days before the census, this would make you think that they were somewhere in Sheffield. All this just to find out John's birthplace!!!

Email  

Hi Brian/Rich

So would it be the Henry St off Infirmary Rd or the Henry St to become Long Henry St Park that is showing on the '51 census??

Didn't we answer the original question?

I thought you had settled on the Manchester Houghton?

More research needed in the Manchester area I would suspect.

One of the Manchester Rootsweb Mailing Lists would help I am sure.

Good luck Rich.

Elaine in Ottawa.

Email   Skype   Website

Years ago I was a Team Vicar in Westhoughton, between Bolton & Wigan, & locally known as just 'Houghton' (but pronounced 'Howfen'). There is a Wearish (or Warish) Lane there, which might be mis-transcribed as 'Waters', & IGI shows a couple of possible John Halls, eg:
name: John Hall
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 04 Jul 1805
baptism/christening place: West Houghton, Lancashire, England
father's name: James Hall
mother's name: Ellen Hall
indexing project (batch) number: I03998-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545485

Unfortunately this period is not yet transcribed by Lancs Online Clerks.

I offer this just as another possibility, not as any more likely than previous suggestions.

Best wishes,

Geoffrey

Email  

PS: I'd forgotten Waters Nook in Westhoughton -only a hundred yards from where we used to live: that might make my suggestion a bit more likely.

G.

Email  

Hi Geoffrey

It definitely throws another Houghton into the exuation (which is a good thing).
I'll keep digging away at it. I'll get there in the end.

Thanks again
RichB

Email  

Just to add a bit more about John Hall's birthplace. Near to the Houghton (Blackburn) is a place known locally as Houghton Bottoms. There used to be a water powered cotton mill there years ago. This would have needed a reservoir or lodge to supply water to the wheel - could John have come from this part??

Dararyl

Email  

Hi

That makes things interesting. on the baptism for John Hall in Blackburn which states place of birth as Houghton his fathers occupation is a miller, this would go along with what you were saying about the mill.

Thanks

Email