THE VOICE CONNECTION
SOUND OFF

Welcome to The Voice Connection Sound Off; a forum for users of books like Raise Your Voice, Melody to Madness, The Ultimate Breathing Workout, and Unleash Your Creative Mindset, as well as a place for Vendera Vocal Academy members to interact.

This message board was created so that singers could come together and "sound off" to help support each other during vocal development and the creative process of unleashing the creative spark that occurs when writing and producing music. Currently, myself and vocal coaches Ben Valen, Ray West, and Ryan Wall are here to respond periodicially to your questions, with new vocal coaches coming soon. But, feel free to help each other too:)

This board is here for you to ask questions about my and my fellow coach's books, videos, and MP3 programs, as well as offer others help with our vocal techniques. You may also post videos of yourself and your band to share your music and ask for critiques.

Please refrain from negative comments, profanities, spamming, and inappropriate criticisms of vocal methodologies, vocal coaches, and singers. All negative posts will be deleted and subject to banning without question. I will not respond to negative posts, because, as Mark Twain once said, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” With that said, positive criticism is welcome because that is how you'll grow as a singer during the training process.


The Voice Connection - Sound Off
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
View Entire Thread
Re: Register/Modal Breaks - Discuss! (WARNING: Includes References to Vocal Technobabble)

Cool post, like the way you broke it down. As for having that wall, you should know that Transcending Tones are friggin hard!!! And it may take many months to develop the muscle to freely expand past that wall. This is why I make you do falsetto, then TT, then full voice sirens to build the muscle gradually into the full voice contractions. Don't worry, just keep working, and even with all the jargon, you're right, too much. Simply focus on the sound and sensations and continue singing every day as you also do your muscle building work and it will all come together;)

Re: Register/Modal Breaks - Discuss! (WARNING: Includes References to Vocal Technobabble)

I know this is an old post - how have you progressed? Have you found out how to lift your ceiling?

I think with all the technical - cross dictionary - cross theory - trying to make it all work together-ness you missed some important points. Too much information when not fully understood can be harmful to the task at hand.

Falsetto is not a place or a resonance, it's a breathy tone, it can not be equated with head voice - male or female and is quite different than whistle tones. I can have chesty falsetto, and heady falsetto.

I don't think of "Head Voice" and "Chest Voice" as places anymore either thanks to RYV - they are merely resonance placements that aid in tone production. The "breaks" are where you are unsure/unpracticed in shifting your resonance placements.

I think you have hit a ceiling because you equate falsetto with head resonance and therefore you aren't actually truly reaching head resonance because you perceive it to be falsetto which is false(etto... lol).

Resonance placement plays a key role in the tones and notes you are able to produce - it is not your chords alone that create what the ear hears and perceives as notes/tones(think of it as 1,3&5 make up a major chord - but instead of fingers on strings or keys, it's tones within your voice). You can keep your chords in one constant tone/position and manipulate the core resonance placement and breath pressure to move around each scale and octave - then use slight larynx adjustments to color those tones (so you were on 1,3&5 for the major, but drop the 3 to a 3b and now you're minor - the other 2 tones are still the same, but the shift of one changed the nature of the tone and the interaction of the 1&5). I found this out after MANY years of sounding "flat" in places - because I misunderstood the power of resonance, so I would bring in chest resonance in to add "something".. a little "thickness" and it would darken my tone too much and make me sound (and therefore BE by auditory perception) flat - I really only needed a slight drop of the larynx to get the richness I was after. It would irritate me to NO END listening to recordings thinking - I know I was mechanically in the right key - WTF happened - then I realized it was my resonance. Problem solved. BUT ANYWHO...

In your post you are also putting too much emphasis on what your throat is doing - I know what techniques use these M0-M4 theologies and through experience I honestly believe it's the mentality of these theologies that limit the students of such schools - or perhaps it's the way students interperate them, they are only meant as a tool for ease of correspondence, not to assume these are actually 5 throat/chord "placements" or even passages/breaks/passagios - whatever you'd like to call them. If you put too much responsibility on your chords and don't utilize your resonance cores and builders (including palate and larynx placement), sound placement and breath support you are flat out expecting too much from 2 little flaps of vibrating muscle.

The coordination of resonance creation, chord activity, sound placement and breath pressure should be fluent and rounded - don't think of it as "okay, I'm on this platform now... how do I get to the next one?" Think of notes more as SLIDING to them, not stepping to them - like a half pipe or a swing. The higher you go on a swing the more gravity pulls you forward and out - so too must the sound slide forward and out. I sometimes even have to put my chin down on high notes to "launch" the sound out of the top of my head - chin down also releases tension on your chords so they can vibrate more fluently.

In your basic Ultimate Vocal Warm-up exercises before you even begin your transcending tones make sure you're using those 4 elements properly. How can you tell? High or low you will feel the buzz in your mouth and sinus cavities (not resonance - but buzz from the pure sound production) - it'll tickle your lips during the hums, but you'll feel it in EVERY exercise...even the gargling tones. If you don't feel it the balance of those 4 things is off in that tonal area. Stop the exercises and try to find it again - reset and do over.

I noticed relaxation is also a HUGE key factor in the TT's - in anything really - if you anticipate or try too hard you just end up locking yourself up, pushing too much air, tensing your chords - it can get really frustrating. I would walk around and try to do them... start cleaning up or reading an uninteresting article or something so I wasn't focusing so much as feeling and just letting it flow. Overthought kills.

Also speaking from the experience of a "vocal program junkie" - put the rest of them away. Focus on RYV and Jaime's teachings. Every program tries to give you a different explanation of the same principals, the same tools but a different way of using them - some... go a little overboard and get WAY too technical for the sake of credibility and sounding more intelligent. Some ask you to manipulate your sound production muscles to achieve things. There is no need. Your voice makes MANY tones throughout the day when your talking to your friends, telling a story, etc. and you don't even have to try. There's no need for forced manipulation and the development of compensatory muscles - just strengthen the natural ones and you'll be much better off, with much less risk of strain or injury. Jaime has the most comprehensive, natural & complete way to develop your vocals that I have found... too bad it's been hundreds and hundreds of dollar later.

Re: Register/Modal Breaks - Discuss! (WARNING: Includes References to Vocal Technobabble)

I can save your fingers a lot of typing by just requesting you post an audio clip of you ascending a scale from comfortable range to as high as you can and I will tell you exactly how to fix your issue. You say "let's throw out chest voice /headvoice terms" but you end up just using the same terms but calling them M1 or M2 or whatever. it's all the same stuff....whatever terms float your boat, all I need is to hear you and I can help.

Phil Moufarrege
Grow-The-Voice.com

Re: Register/Modal Breaks - Discuss! (WARNING: Includes References to Vocal Technobabble)

Interesting and complicated.

My eyes just sort of glazed over when I read this because of all the terms and explanations.

I'm a bass baritone who could do a clear F6 in a strong headvoice and D6 (and sometimes E6) in full voice. The problem was my overall chest break was still A3 and it didn't matter how many transcending tones or sirens I did, the timbre was weak/weird and didn't bridge well with my chest. It would never sound anything like tenor.

Soooooo...

I decided to rebuild this voice and stretch out my chest and it presently goes A0 to G4 without fry (A1-F4 very comfortably).

BTW, you can't sing in whistle, it's weak, and if you aren't a girl the timbre is awful. My whistle also starts at C6 and isn't strong enough to go above E6 without training so for me what's the point? Plus on other forums little girls and teens squeak out 7 and 8 octave whistles--why try to compete with that?

The only reason I can think of is Mariah Carry and her supposed 7 octaves (or Georgia Brown and her 8). Instead consider Tim Storms and his supposed 10 octaves--its better to go lower because that actually helps build your singable chest voice.

Re: Register/Modal Breaks - Discuss! (WARNING: Includes References to Vocal Technobabble)

Michael L
Let's drop all the "chest voice", "head voice" jargon for a minute and state things in purely technical terms. I'm pulling the following from the linked academic articles on the topic, just in case someone thinks I made it up. (It's interesting reading, if you can wade through all the technical detail of anatomy and acoustics.)

http://www.choralnet.org/paint/266734/A+Science-Based+Explanation+of+Vocal+Registers.pdf
http://www.med.rug.nl/pas/Conf_contrib/Castellengo/Castellengo_bio_touch.htm (includes sound file examples! )

These are separated purely by differences in the anatomy of sound production.

Pulse (M0) - Vocal fry. That thing you can do that sounds really raspy, lets you approximate very low tones and can be mixed with other modes of vocalizing to change the tone and ease transitions across breaks. Uses the vestibular or "false" folds. See also: Tibetan chant, Mongolian/Tuvan throat singing. And this guy: .

Lower (M1) - Speaking range / Chest voice. Pretty self-explanatory and something we are all intimately familiar with. When you sing high-ish notes while "pulling chest" or belting, you're forcing M1 when your throat would naturally prefer M2.

Upper (M2) - Mix(?) / Head voice (male). This is what bridges the sonic gap between speaking tones and falsetto tones and is what most of us here are striving to develop. I actually think a breathy M2 might be the exclusive speaking mode of this guy: .

Flute (M3) - Pure falsetto(male) / Head voice (female) / Flageolet. From British boys' choirs to quiet monkey and pidgeon gargle exercises, I think we all know this when we hear or use it.

Whistle (M4) - Zipped-up falsetto, with only the forward portion of the folds vibrating. Mariah Carey, anyone?


A quick reminder of pitch notation: Middle C = C4, Tenor C = C5, Soprano C = C6. Other pitches carry the number of the C below them. Thus the lines on the bass clef are G2, B2, D3, F3, A3; treble clef lines are E4, G4, B4, D5, F5.


So I, as a baritone, can sing relatively effortlessly from A2-D4 in M1 and A3-D5 in M3 (I'm skipping M2 on purpose here), and greater effort/control (not strain, mind you) gives me F2-G4 and G3-A5 but with airy tone at the low ends and low endurance at the belted high ends.

The trouble comes when I try to practice Transcending Tones (messa di voce) in the C4-C5 octave. As I understand it, as I attempt to sustain a note while crescendoing from pp-ff (or 1 to 10) my voice starts in M3 and should transition to M2 and, at lower pitches, all the way to M1. This works fine at C4/D4, requires focused control at E4/F4 and is quite difficult to control at G4, which will resolve to a full belted M1 tone.

Here's where the trouble sets in: at A4/B4 I can swell to mf (6), transitioning smoothly from M3 to M2, but when I try to push it to f or ff (7-9), instead of resolving to M1 or maintaining M2 with more energy, my tone enters a death spiral of continuous cracking . Apparently, this rapid alternation between modal registers is used extensively in classical Iranian avaz singing style.

(Side note: see this example where the singer first uses M1/M2 jumps and later M2/M3 jumps as musical accents. Neato!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcCAQqNqvPk

At C5/D5 I can resolve to a strong reinforced falsetto sound, probably M3 with a lot of compression, and at E5-A5 (and occasionally up to B5/C6 for very brief intervals) I'm learning to actually feel my thyroid tilt that accompanies the vocal folds zipping into M4.

My weak spot, then, is a small range of pitches intermediate between M1 (full chest) and M3 (falsetto, reinforced or otherwise) that only give me trouble at high volume. Ah, the elusive M2 "voix mixte"! I've tried isolating the exact pitches/volumes where vocal production starts to break down, by doing very slow mini-sirens (1/2-octave or less) at varying volumes. Has anyone else tried this? For example, E4-A4 up and down at a rate of 1/2 to 1 second per semitone, repeated in dynamic increments from very soft falsetto slide (pp) up to full volume and resonance (ff). I'm still working on identifying exactly what this register feels and sounds like, at which point I will try sirens exclusively in this mode as high, low, and loud as I can. At that point I hope to draw up a pitch production profile for myself, with M1, M2 and M3 drawn as curves with pitch on the x-axis and volume on the y-axis. (Yes, I was a math nerd.)

After all the work I've done, I feel a definite limitation, like a physical ceiling that sags down above those few notes (G#4-B4) and prevents me from reaching full volume in that pitch range. Imagine a spot in the middle of your living room where you don't have room to reach up and get a really satisfying stretch because your elbows hit the ceiling. I'm frustrated but persevering.

A final bit of technical terminology, for those of you who are interested: Open Quotient (OQ) vs. Closed Quotient (CQ). When taking direct measurements of the voice by Electroglottograph (EGG) one useful metric is the proportion of time that the adducted vocal folds are in contact with each other (closed) vs. open and allowing airflow (open) during sound production. These two values always add up to 1. Knowing this, the only difference between a high flute-like falsetto tone and a Jim Gillette metal scream on the same pitch is that the soft tone has a high OQ (0.7+) and the metal scream has a lower one (near 0.5). This is achieved (I think) by the muscles in your larynx squeezing around the vocal folds, forcing them a bit closer together so that they spend more time in contact during each oscillation. As far as what you hear, the sound gets "bigger" or "brighter" as a result of greater overtone production and some subharmonics. I'm pretty sure this is what's happening where (I totally forget exactly where in RYV) Jaime says something like "think about grunting, but don't actually grunt, and is actually different from the glottal compression I've read/heard about from several other sources.

Sorry for the rambling wall of text I just left, but there's an awful lot of information and misinformation floating around teh interwebs and I was hoping to spark a more in-depth discussion and sharing of experiences regarding the development of the different registers and working to smooth out the transitions between them.

(Post also copied to TheModernVocalistWorld forum.)



math nerd indeed! maybe you should try using doing some slope point form math instead!