I see a lot on smoothing out the "break", which seems to be around f4 to g4. I've never had what sounds like a break when I go through it up to A4, or anything through the break area.

So whats going on? I can go through it quietly and I don't hear a flip.

Can you do it loudly without straining? If you can do that, then you are very fortunate, and expanding your range should be much easier for you than to some people. Just make sure you are not pulling chest voice up.

Well before I took a 3 or 4 day break from exercises, loudly I could go up to D5. Is it even possible to pull chest up that high without pain? The D5 I could only do with "yay" and it sounded really thin. B under high C is as high as i'd use in a song as of now.

Quietly I can go up to A4 in full voice. B4 go quieter as I developed more notes above it.

So....I dont have a break or something?

Can you record yourself doing sirens from D3-D4 up going up by half steps until you get to D4-D5 perhaps? If you don't break when doing any of those, then perhaps you've already trained yourself to switch through the breaking point, which is great news for you because it means you really only have to work on getting higher and stronger as you go up. But you do still have a break, you just smoothed it out, because if you didn't have a break, you could just keep going up in chest voice. The break is more of the nickname given to the passagio I think, and without a passagio, theres no head voice. I'm almost possible that isn't possible.

Well said! The passagio is where the cords begin to zip. You have a break but if your placement is right and your tongue stays relaxed, you might naturally be able to coordinate the transition between your middle and head voice. Good for you

You beleive that 'zipping' occurs that low?

Oupsy, NO! Sorry guys! I read that post too quickly when it was first posted on the 22nd but didn't have time to reply and I should have read it again the next day before replying!

The zipping would start happening around the tenor C (C5 for men). Thanks for catching that Open Mic

So to revise my answer in the right context, I would say that if your voice is already well placed in the mask, you won't hear the break between the chest and middle voice. That break comes much more naturally to people because it is simply an elongation of the cord happening rather than the zipping. It's more a matter of flexibility rather than coordination if I can put it that way...

Yeah i'll record some sirens and post them whenever I have time. Maybe this Sunday. I wanna make sure i'm not pulling chest or doing anything bad xD.

I know everyone has a break, but when I said I dont have one, I meant its not hear-able. I'm not picky with my lingo.

If the zipping happens at C5, then what happens at the break in the F4 area?

I was just about to ask the same question. If zipping isn't what causes the sudden transition, what does?

The transition between chest voice and middle voice shouldn't be heard. If it is, it means that you have been singing in the throat during chest voice. You should always mix your resonances a little bit so that in your lower register (which has a tendency to vibrate more in your chest) is not completely sang down there. You can do this by focusing/placing your focus high up in the mask even on lower notes. Think of Melissa Cross' pencil exercise in which she says to pitch the voice above the pencil. That works well usually.

With respect, I don't really think that answer helped in understanding actually why the 'break'occurs.

The answer is actually pretty simple. It is muscular coordination changes. Let me explain further.

There are two muscles in the larynx that are important when talking about the break, the thyroartenoid muscle, which controls the thickness of the folds, (ie to put it simply when adequately contracted causes a full voice sound) and the cricothyroid muscle which incraeses pitch as it icreases its contraction.
In chest voice, the thyroartenoid muscle is the dominant muscle but in head the cricothyroid muscle has the dominant action.
As you approach the transition, you need to be able to back off the thyroartenoid muscle and allow the cricothyroid muscle to become dominant. 'Breaks' occur when an inexperienced singer lets go of the thyroarytenoid contraction too quickly leading to a drastic change in fold thickness which of course affects the acoustics of the voice. The more experienced singer will very gradually let go of the ontraction (although there is some fold thickness present in head voice) leading to a seamless transition into head voice.

If you want to keep full voice beyond your passagio, you simply don't let go of thyroarytenoid ccntraction at all and take that fold thickness past the passagio.

You can 'place' the sound wherever you want but if you haven't got the coordinations down, where you try to place the resonance is not going to make any difference.

Oiselle, can you explain to me why you say 'zipping' occurs at C5 for the male?

Use you ears to determine how to focus your voice. If you start thinking of what muscle you can't even see does what, you might start becoming very tensed.


About zipping; did we not have that debate before? This is the TRANSITION area between maximum elongation and start of zipping. If you're a man this happens between C5 and F5 usually. It starts happening around E5 for women. What is commonly referred to as the passagio. Everybody is different and you can't say for a fact that zipping occurs on an exact note per se. This is all approximative.

I'm not gonna waist more time on this...

I don't think it's ever a waste of time to discuss vocal technique.

I didn't at any point say think about which muscle is working. It is irrelevant when actually singing. I just thought I would actually help by describing what was actually happening. Sure it is not as if it matters as you are singing, but the question was asked and so I thought I would give the actual physiological answer to help in understanding. I genuinely thought I was helping.

We didn't actually have the 'zipping' debate before. The thread was deleted before we actually got into it. I personally still don't believe it starts quite that low. Dampening occurs in extreme stretch and complete absence of thyroarytenoid contraction. This has been shown to be an essential componant to bridge into the flageolet register (Donald G. Miller and Harm K. Schutte. Physical definition of the “flageolet register”. Journal of Voice
Volume 7, Issue 3, September 1993, Pages 206-212.)
There is actually no scientific documentation of dampening in the way that has been described by many. Granted it is an extremely unresearched phenomenon yet is has nonetheless disproved in the way certainly SLS has described it as necessary for head/mix or middle.

My personal belief is that the zipping phenomenon was a theory first presented many years ago to describe registration which has since been disproved but has stuck by convention.

Can I ask where you got the info about it starting in these particular ranges Oiselle, I'd be interested in reading.

Cheers

Open Mic, I don't mind that you add your scientific description of what is going on as long as you don't start your post by PUTTING MINE DOWN OR ANYBODY ELSE'S. If my post wasn't helpful to you, I'm sure it was to other people.

The reason why the zipping debate thread was deleted is that this is an RYV board and arguing against theories that are 1)widely acknowledged by singers and vocal coaches around the globe and 2)that go against the teachings of RYV, is simply confusing to many readers and therefore unnecessary and misleading. You are welcomed to initiate this debate on another board.

It's not a matter of open mindedness but rather a question of consistency. I will keep a close eye on this thread and I WILL delete posts that I feel irrelevant.

I don't have to justify my posts with written references. Vocal breaks typically happen around those areas and I've known this by experience: having heard/worked with many many singers either as a young voice student, a musician or vocal coach. This is based on living proof. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is google it yourself.

Oh the arguments on this board, I swear, always the same, and always because of the same things.

Open mic, thank you for explaining why the first break occurs, and Oisselle (I really hope I spelled that right), thank you for explaining the zipping.

Personally, I'm in the mind that I don't care so much what is causing the voice to go higher, just that I can without straining. I have that problem. I still strain. Thats why i'm still trying to figure out what i'm doing wrong. If I can't figure it out soon, I may take a break from doing anything musical and start completely over with what i'm doing. Meaning I go back to only working up to an E4 until I can smoothly get it in full voice at the start of the mix and working my way up from there. I just got vocal power in the mail today, so I'm going to add those scales to my exercises and hope it helps.

Without turing this into just an argument I would like to clarify something. Yes, it is irrelevant when it comes to actually singing but I think it is an important point nonetheless.

'Zipping' mayv be widely acknowledged by singers. However, there is no evdence at all at this moment in time that it occurs in the way that the people who originally theorised it described. You can google it all you want and you will only get a singers perspective (and these are often also spelling cords 'chords' which always makes me laugh lol) and it will not be based on any evidence.
I have described how the dampening has been proven to occur at this moment in time. I have also said why I beleive it is considered to occur by the singing community. There has been various theories on registraion that have been produced over the years and they are now becoming consistant in their content. This suggests they are getting something right.
Anyway, check out the study if you can. I think you'd find it interesting.

Open Mic,

There is video footage of the vocal cords zipping up.

I've seen it in person when my best friend was scoped at her ENT's office because of a Granuloma.

The ENT had her sing an EEE scale and told her to slide up and once she got up past the granuloma, her cords started zipping up.

So, it DOES happen.


Tim

It doesn't happen in the way that has been described before.
Unfortunately the video example that was posted here before was unclear as it was possible to draw the conclusion that you wish to see.
Look at the slide in the following video from about 19 seconds in and tell me what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrullzgEYmU

Open Mic,

You seem to have come here to argue with one of the fundamentals of the RYV technique which of course is zipping. Some people don't believe it actually occurs, and thats fine. Go to other boards and debate the day away if you feel thats necessary. The point you don't seem to get is that this is a board for Raise Your Voice readers. Contradictory information being posted and debated by you or anyone else is counterproductive and confusing to people who come here to learn more about Jaime's techniques. No one is saying you must agree with everything in the book, and no ones saying you cannot advise people to try different things. However, saying that oiselle's or anyone else's post isn't helpful because it doesn't go with what you personally believe shouldn't be tolerated. I've seen you on other boards, Brett Manning's for example, debating this same exact thing. You may be right and you may be wrong; it doesn't exactly matter though. Like I said this is a board for Jaime's technique. If you disagree, fine, but I think it would be a good idea to put an end to the constant debating of one of the main techniques featured in Raise Your Voice.

If you ask Jaime, he's not going to say it is one of the fundamentals of RYV. Good vocal technique is. What happens, as already stated numerous times is irrelevant when actually singing. Jaime has said that he uses it for visualisation and knows that it is not necessarily how it actually happens. Whatever way it happens, it's not a technique...it's a coincidental factor in free vocalisation.
This isn't a new thing. The reference I gave was from 1993.
If you don't want the discussion and the evidence then fine. I would have thought that any discussion on the voice to gain knowledge would only be beneficial.

Btw Oiselle, it wasn't that what you said may not help people get through their bridge, it was just that to me it didn't actually adress the actual question that was asked as to why the break occurs. Perhaps I could have put that in a way that wouldn't have been seen as confrontational. Apologies.

I read your post again Skull and picked up on something. To observe healthy vocal fold function, you need just that, a healthy voice. What you were seeing was the vocal folds in a pathological state. The granuloma will naturally touch the other fold preventing normal function and this will lead to a change in function of the vocal folds. With the granuloma touching, you may well have seen what looked liked dampening, but this was more than likely part of the pathological process.

Open Mic,

You're wrong. It had nothing to do with the Granuloma.

I asked the ENT about it and he said the vocal folds always zip up after a certain point in range is reached. He said he had people sing an E sound because he could easily see the folds close, and he said in a health voice there is no break in the seal. When he had Shannon try to sing through the area with the Granuloma, her voice became very husky and almost disappeared because the cords bowed out a bit (The Granuloma was actually on top of the vocal fold, and was not actually right in the path of the closure of the cords - but it still affected how it closed in that area.
When he had her sing higher in pitch, the granuloma didn't really seem to have any effect on her cords except in the immediate area where it existed - because of it's location, it was right in her speaking range. When he asked her to go as high as she comfortably could, you could see the cords zipping up. (He had her on a scope and it was connected to a video monitor - he was teaching two student doctors- it was a cool setup.)

I'm going to have to look on Thomas Appell's video, because I think there is footage of the vocal cords zipping up on that.

Oh, just looking in his bookm,"Can You Sing a High 'C' Without Straining?"

On Page 7 There are pictures (not drawings, but photos taken from an O-scope) of Vocal Cords zipping up as he ascends in scale, and you can CLEARLY see the folds zipping up.


If you still want to argue this issue, since that seems to be all you want to do is Argue - I would suggest you go and have a talk with Mr. Appell; He first released this book in 1982 and has been one of the World's most respected Vocal Instructors of PROFESSIONAL vocalists (as well as other vocal instructors) for long that you've been walking this planet.




Tim

I don't think I've done a very good job in the way that I have come across on these forums. Perhaps I should start again. Apologies to those I have managed to offend. Perhaps we can have these discussions without the confrontation.

Skull, I have never said dampening doesn't occur. I agree with your ENT. Dampening occurs in extreme stretch of the vocal folds towards the very top of your range. You can take it a little lower if you wish when singing very lightly.
Even so though, it is still not a perfect example. Did you see the clip that I posted from youtube? What did you think?

The thing is with these pictures is that you can pick and choose the best example of what you are trying to explain. It could well be that the pictures used correctly show 'zipping' in the extremes of the range. Does it say what pitch they are on? It does happen, just not as low as some people state and this has been shown.

I'm not here just to argue, it just so happens that I read alot of peer reviewed articles that disagree with some of what is being said. It's just that the questions that have come up just so happen to be on stuff some of us seem to have different views. I perhaps haven't have put myself across in the way I have intended and I again apologise to those I have offended. I have however posted evidence to backup what I have said.

I don't really know Thomas' views on the voice as I haven't read his book. If he's about I'd love to have a chat. I'll talk forever aobut the voice to anyone. Being a professional coach and vocalist though doesn't make you a scientist. I've posted one of the articles talking about it (incidently from one of the leading scientific experts on the voice as well as a well respected voice coach).

Yes, it does.

It starts out at G 1-octave below Middle C, and it shows it progressing up to C5, which shows the cords zipped approximately halfway up.


Tim

Open mic, it goes both ways...Just because you are a scientist..or studying to be a doctor does NOT make you a vocal coach. Thomas Appel is highly respected and it wouldn't matter to me whether you debated him all day or not. I love that you offer a lot of great vocal anatomy knowledge on here, we need that. But we need to maintain some couth on this board. I remember you stating once that they'd laugh me out of a conservatory if I didn't know my anatomy and was up to date...Well the pro rock singers I work with would laugh someone off the stage for trying to discuss anatomy to explain why they are having a hard time on the road or what not. Point is, it goes both ways. People CAN benefit by learning their anatomy, but in the end, I don't think it will make them gain 3 extra notes. Thomas Appell has taught THOUSANDS of singers to extend their range and done it without anatomy. I haven't taught as long as Thomas but I gurantee you I have taught many as well;) Now as far as the zipping goes, I was taught it occurs at the break through Thomas by pictures, video and personal explanation. Does it occur at the break? I agree with you in that it is irrellevant and may not actualy occur there, but as I state, I use these visualizations to help people and it has worked time and time again. THis post is not meant to be a slam against Open Mic in any way. I have had the pleasure of talking with him and I know for a fact he is NOT in any way trying to be a smart ass. He just genuinely has a sincere love of the voice. That is how passionate I was in the beginning. All I am saying is let's learn to get along...And remember, Oiselle runs this board! ;)

Knowing the stuff doesn't suddenly make you coach. There are loads of other qualities which we discussed at length in various posts. We all start somewhere though...at what point do you become a 'coach'. I've taught with great results with instant increases in range/power/quality etc but no, I haven't taught hundreds of people but I have only been teaching around 6 months. Doesn't mean I'm not good or not going to be great though. Had incredible feedback so far though.
This thread, although it started as a technique thread kind of turned into a physiology thread when it was asked why the break occured. That's why it got a bit more 'scientific'.
The whole 'zipping' thing (I prefer dampening as I always to be completely frank found the term 'zipping' a bit amateur although it may help explain if you use these visualisations to help) is irrelevant when actually singing but its always nice to have the discussion among those interested. I'm sure Thomas is a great teacher but that doesn't make him corect in this field. It is though, more important as a coach to be able to fix problems rather than know physiologically how they occur.

Cheers for the kind words Jaime. I'm just trying to share with you guys some info that you may have come across before. Yes, some of what I present may be controversal to some of the older theories but the info is out there for those interested.

Herein lies the problem on this board and others. I have had many people on this board and the Voice Council make cmments to me that they think you are very disrespectful, to which I have been defending you. I am saying this to you because I know you mean well and are a noce person, but when you say things like, "I prefer dampening as I always to be completely frank found the term 'zipping' a bit amateur... and I'm sure Thomas is a great teacher but that doesn't make him corect in this field" only makies you appear arrogant. You CAN be a great coach although you've just taught 6 months, but when you are coming off as if you are some sudden top world expert with no respect for no one but your own thoughts and methodologies, you aren't making many friends. Hey when I was 19 and living in Hollywood and singing in the bars, I was cocky too. Point is there is a reason tha I and Thomas are where we are at in this field, so you need to get a loittle more respect for people on these boards or otherwise in the long run, if you plan on pursuing vocal coaching as a career, you are going to have a lot of people who won't respect you because of your choice of words. Think about this and choose your words wisely from now on. Remember, I am only looking out for you, but I don't think you see that:(

Everytime I post, I get quite suprised at the comments that return because the way they seem to be taken is not the way it is meant. It wouldn't be a problem if chatting on the phone or something as people can get a feel more for who I am. Perhaps I didn't come across well in my first few posts and I think people made a judgement of me and have taken my posts in a more confrontational maner than intended.

Of all the things that have been said though, the comment about a lack of respect I feel is unfair. I can understand that perhaps that is the way it could have come across in the written word but just a few minutes spent chatting with me and people would know that lack of respect certainly is not an issue. It of course works both ways though. There have been times when I have been shown a lack of respect too.

If people have had problems, get them to pm me via the voice council pages and I'll reply. I'll be more than happy to catch them on skype for a chat(although my internet connection here sucks so it may have to be a real time messenger). Perhaps I'll try and catch you too Jaime and try and sort this out. Call me what you wish but disrespectful is something that I don't want sticking.

Open Mic,

I'll put it in layman's terms because I was the one that told Jaime I thought you were being a Smartass.

Aren't you studying to be a doctor?

Well, in the world of medicine, you would be told that you have horrible bedside manners if you were to talk to patients in the manner you have posted here.

You come across as if you are a rude, nebbish, elitist-wanna-be, know-it-all; your posts seem as if they were written by a 13-year old who who stole a medical dictionary and attempted to use as many medical terms in one paragraph as he possibly could.


I'm not coming down on you, and I'm not trying to be mean - but that is just how every single one of your posts has seemed to me - as if you think you know everything, and the rest of us don't know anything all - and that is including some of the top professional vocal instructors IN THE WORLD.



Tim

I agree, and I have brought it to Jaime's attention as well. You DO go against the techniques of coaches like Jaime and Brett on their own boards. Like I said, its fine if you disagree, but it seems like your sole purpose of being on any board is to argue against important aspects of that particular coaches technique. Yes, I do believe the zipping is an important part of Jaime's technique.Why? Its a featured part of the Raise Your Voice book. Whether it happens as stated, like Jaime said, doesnt really matter. If you are going to coach people by trying to impress them with medical information, your going to have a very small client base because most people dont care. They want real solutions in the most simple and effective manner, not a lesson on anatomy and then possibly some solutions thrown in.

I take Jaime's word that you are just coming across in the wrong way, but at the same time I do think you are disrespectful just because you do go to various boards and argue with everyone and try to sound more knowledgeable because you seem to spend more time reading than doing, causing more confusion than anything. Im sure there are more lurkers here than there are posters (its that way on most boards). These people just want to learn something and get help with their problems, and debating the crap out of something like zipping and talking down to people because they dont see it your way isn't going to get someone there.

I do a lot for this site. I spend countless hours booking, conducting, and editing interviews (this is a lot more time consuming than you would think; I usually have to spend weeks just to set up one interview, and from there they are usually rescheduled time and time again). I have helped to manage the myspace page whenever something new needs to be added. Oiselle, who runs the board, works just as much im sure. Jaime puts most of his time and energy into keeping this site up and running. A lot goes into making this all work, so hopefully you can understand why it is upsetting that after providing all of this content and doing all this work to create this place for fans of the RAISE YOUR VOICE method, not the Open Mic Vocal Research method, you get people who show up on the board seemingly to argue and undermine the technique being discussed. This is an open forum for all vocal technique discussion as Jaime has said time after time, but at the same time I don't think you are truly helping anyone with the constant debates.

I think Open Mic will get the point this time... What do you say we let this one go?

It's very easy to make assumptions about people when youh haven't met or spoken to them. I guess that is why Jaime has been nice even though I probably haven't made it easy for him to do.

It's probably worth noting I've not gone against the technique of any of these people. It's just fine print in some of the physiology that I have had different views to and I've already mentioned that it is irrelevant when actually singing.

Skull, I am studying to be a Doctor but that is irrelevant in terms of singing. Actually my bedside manner is something I pride myself on.

Austin, I've stated it doesn't matter either when it coems to actually sing. Its not as if I spend an hour going through anatomy and physiology every lesson. It's there if people ask something or show an interest in it though.
You did make a big assumption when you said about reading more than actually doing. I'll read something when I hear about something I don't know much about and am interested in it.

Anyway. I guess I'll watch what I'm posting.

I have to agree that the written word is always taken in the wrong context, and most likely that is what is hapening in these posts. I also have to say that I hated posting my last message but I wanted you to understand how you are being taken not only here but on several boards. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings but you needed to know this. It could just be our difference in communication skills...Nothing that would cause a rise on the phone but something that would start a complete arguement on the internet;)