After laying down all the instrumental tracks for “LIGHTS” (the easy part), I thought, now comes the hard part. I took in all of the suggestions found on my previous "Journey...." thread. I tried not to “SIT” on my voice, but I was sitting down. I tried to stay relaxed with shoulders down, but still pushing straight down. I tried to keep the throat open. I tried to sing in full voice vs “loose” falsetto. After all that, all I can say is that it is very frustrating to think I am singing on pitch with good tone only to be let down by hearing the recording played back and hearing something very different. Anyway, if you get a chance, please let me know if my self analysis is correct or not:

-- I believe I am singing with reinforced falsetto and full voice.

-- Since I was not singing softly this time around, I believe you will hear the harshness in my voice and IT REALLY BUGS ME. I hope this is correctable cause I think it sounds really bad. I also re-recorded the vocals and instruments for “STAY AWHILE” and more so on this song is where you will hear some not so great tones in full voice.

-- I believe my shaky breath support is causing my vocals to wobble some.

-- I'm still having some intonation problems, but I don't know why.

-- I don't think I feel or hear any tightness, but still my vocal tone is lousy. My larynx is a little high or sunk into my throat. I'm not having much success fixing this problem.

And lastly, my wife and kids cringe and make faces when they hear me sing these songs, so you don’t have to worry about being critical. I am use to it, but I do listen. I am determined to find out if I can sing songs like these and make people smile instead of cringe.

"LIGHTS" and the new "STAY AWHILE" songs can be found at:

http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/default.cfm?bandID=113731&content=music

Thanks for your suggestions and critique,

Andre

dont worry about sounding bad when you're experimenting like that man...

there were some times in the songs where you touched a light mixed voice, but a lot of it was still faletto. it almost sounded as if you were pushing the falsetto. what jaime refers to as reenforced falsetto is not the same as i do, and is not the tone you we're making.

here is the advice i can give you. keep doing the ryv exercises religiously, and when ryv2 comes out do the same. the problem you are facing can only be fixed with time and hard work, because you voice isn't strong enough to handle what you want it to do just yet.

You do have the right idea though; don't push for something that ain't there yet. You might want to look into some SLS exercises...Especially the inflections that they use...Do scales really nasal and keep your volume the same, your falsetto will open up into a mixed voice in short time. Right now, from RYV, you'll really benefit from transcending tone. You need to do it slowly and discover where it stops being easy to do. get as loud and as thick as you can but if it stops being easy, you stop there and sustain it. You MUST not force it or you're teaching yourself to force full voice. Stay in a mix if that's what you can do right now.

sirens and TT... there lies the key !! I also had that issue (sounding too soft), and it has a lot to do with the psychological aspect of your singing... AND your abilty with crescendos on vowels, which I DO recommend (out of own experience)... pitch wise, and rythmically you are doing excellent though, which shows you ain't losing the point out of putting too much emphasis on power :D cheers to you man :D...

steve almost never sings neutrally (to my ear) so don't expect to feel as if you are singing with no energy at all :D just don't let it be exhausting (you know you do not have to strain hahaha ) but really express it more intensely :D

Too much head voice now!

That said, you must be kind to yourself and don't be so self-conscious. From the moment you are, problems occur. I know it's a strange concept to understand but it's true. You need to let go. Don't be afraid to make mistakes and taking your time to fix them. You are one step closer to achieving your goal. Be kind to yourself.

First, go back to the basics to get a balanced mixture from your head through your chest resonances. Practice this song, one note at the time (baby steps count). Only sing on vowels for now. Well, not exactly because I want you to start that note on a rolled "R". Than open on the desired vowel.

Imagine a long elevator tunnel going from your diaphragm to your forehead. Imagine that the pressure exercised by your diaphragm, which is pushing downward (are you sure you're not pulling your belly in?) makes the elevator go up. The more you push down, the higher it goes. The elevator is the pitch produced so the higher the pitch, the lower the diaphragm. That way, your sound should feel "connected" to your support. That should add more substance and more balance to your voice.

Do not sing a second note until you feel satisfied with that one (very important).

Second, let go! Stop listening to yourself for a moment! Let the sound come out on its own. Think you are not the one singing. Think of this person singing with someone in front of him, with someone in front of him, with someone in front of him, etc... You get the point!

QUOTE
it almost sounded as if you were pushing the falsetto. what jaime refers to as reenforced falsetto is not the same as i do, and is not the tone you we're making.
END QUOTE

REPLY:
I was attempting to produce the same sound and feeling as when I do the Transcending Tone exercise. Does it sound like I’m doing it wrong?

QUOTE
there were some times in the songs where you touched a light mixed voice, but a lot of it was still faletto. it almost sounded as if you were pushing the falsetto. what jaime refers to as reenforced falsetto is not the same as i do, and is not the tone you we're making.
END QUOTE

REPLY:

Could you please tell me exactly where it sounded like a “light mix” because I’m really not sure what that sounds like, at least on my voice.

I do not feel like I am straining at all when doing the TT exercise. It feels like I am “expanding” instead of “pushing” my falsetto.


QUOTE
AND your abilty with crescendos on vowels, which I DO recommend (out of own experience).
END QUOTE

REPLY:
Please expand on this point.


QUOTE
steve almost never sings neutrally (to my ear) so don't expect to feel as if you are singing with no energy at all (you know you do not have to strain hahaha ) but really express it more intensely :D
END QUOTE

REPLY:
Believe it or not I was trying to sing expressively. Didn’t work, huh? I guess I was still thinking too much about staying in tune, etc.



QUOTE
First, go back to the basics to get a balanced mixture from your head through your chest resonances. Practice this song, one note at the time (baby steps count). Only sing on vowels for now. Well, not exactly because I want you to start that note on a rolled "R". Than open on the desired vowel.
END QUOTE

REPLY:
If I understand you right, I do sing songs all the time ( including these songs) with just ‘Oh’s or ‘NA’s or ‘Ah’s. If this is what you mean I will add ‘starting with the rolled ”R”’. Please explain what the rolled “R” will do for me.


QUOTE
Too much head voice now!
END QUOTE

REPLY:
By this you don’t mean too much FULL VOICE, do you? Like maybe I have overblown it to the point of sounding bad.


QUOTE
Imagine a long elevator tunnel going from your diaphragm to your forehead. Imagine that the pressure exercised by your diaphragm, which is pushing downward (are you sure you're not pulling your belly in?) makes the elevator go up. The more you push down, the higher it goes. The elevator is the pitch produced so the higher the pitch, the lower the diaphragm. That way, your sound should feel "connected" to your support. That should add more substance and more balance to your voice.
END QUOTE

REPLY:
I promise when I push down my belly goes out, but how hard do I need to push because my belly is out and sometimes tight. How hard do I need to push for songs like these? I mean should I feel uncomfortable?


By the way, can you all tell what kind of voice I have (baritone, tenor...) cause I don't know?

Thanks!

The rolled "R": It will help focus your voice into the right cavities of your head while exercising enough pressure from your diaphragm to keep the "R" rolling. It will connect your sound to your support. Roll it for a few seconds than open on your vowels like you described. If there isn't enough pressure from your support, you won't be able to keep the R rolling. It also places your tongue forward when you stop rolling it and its tip lays slightly on top of your front teeth just before you open on a vowel as in RrrrA.

Your support: If you feel uncomfortable, you're pushing too much. Don't think of it as in pushing your belly out. First, breath naturally letting your belling come out without pushing. Than stop thinking about your support and start the "R". Your support will engage on its own. Don't push more than that. Your diaphragm keeps your lungs extended. Again, pushing your belly out doesn't apply the diaphragm's pressure properly. Think of it as a wide plate (or the floor) attached underneath your lungs. As it descends, the escalator in the tunnel goes up!

It's hard to classify your voice into tenor or baritone... It depends what you feel the most comfortable singing in... Your upper register has potential; keep working on it!

Vocal classification doesn't matter. You are singing in a tenor range. Do you sound like an operatic tenor? No, but does Michael Jackson? Does Steve Perry?

Anyone can sing anything provided they have a healthy voice. I've heard women sing lower than I can, and I can get down to an E1. I've also heard men sing higher than Mariah Carrey (Adam Lopez!)

If you mean, however, to classify yourself based on tonality, then simply listen to yourself speak naturally, with a neutral larynx. Tenor voices are oftentimes higher and brighter, whereas basses are dark. I speak at about G3-A3 depending on how tired I am, and I have what I would describe as a bassy quality, therefor I am a bass. If your naturally speaking voice resonates throughout your chest cavity more, you're more than likely a natural bass.

But what the heck does that mean? Nothing. It means your sweet spot is lowered a bit. You'll sound better untrained in certain places. Of course some people break these conventions..

I took a listen to your version of lights, I then listened to the original for I had never heard it before. It seems that your are focusing on many different aspects, like larynx positioning, pushing straight down, open throat, staying relaxed...these are all totally correct habits to get into...BUT the real issue here is that in the original version, he sings with full voice and you sing with reinforced falsetto. At times on the original, the singer uses mixed voice but I figure he's using full voice 95% of the time.

If you are doing the transcending tone exercise and you are swelling into this tone that you are singing on "Lights"...you are probably doing the exercise wrong.

There are probably more experienced vocalists than myself on this board who can get you started on the right path with some advice on how to produce a high note in full voice. I don't really know how to explain it. I suppose it came natural for me because I listened to so much metal before starting to sing. So full voice was an absolute necessity. But i guess I would suggest trying to get an ear for what is the difference between reinforced falsetto and full voice. Like really recognize the difference between them. So then when you are doing RYV exercises you'll be like: "Nope that wasnt full voice, it was reinforced falsetto."

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I took a listen to your version of lights, I then listened to the original for I had never heard it before.
END QUOTE

WOW, Another sign that I must be getting OLD.

I hope when RYV II comes out there will be accompaning videos of several different types of voices doing TT's and the correct shaping of vowels, because I really don't think I know what I am doing anymore. I don't know if I am just pushing my falsetto with more air or transcending (TT).

Is it possible to transcend to FULL VOICE on a C5 note without getting loud?

Well on the bright side, at least I have nine years to figure this out before I retire from work and start my new career entertaining on cruise ships around the world in a lounge act with my wife. HAHA

Full voice is just a coordination. It doesn't need to be loud, it's just easier loud. If you train the right way you can probably sing a pure C5 pretty quietly.

Paul Adrian, in a previous post you wrote:
QUOTE
About Lovin' Touchin Squeezin. I can't vouch for how Steve Perry sang it, but honestly I've sang the song myself more times than I've heard the original. Plus I've heard both Steve Augeri and Jeff Scott Soto sing it, and to me this song derives its emotional power from definitely singing it in full voice. Listen to the words man, you've got to really sing from the guts to properly communicate this song ;)
END QUOTE


I discovered that the first three words of the song LIGHTS work out like this with my voice.

Notes : D4 E4 F#
Lyrics : WHEN THE LIGHTS
My Voice : Before Break After
Registers?: Chest Mix Falsetto

This might be an example of the type of song I should not sing because it goes back and forth over my nature break ( E4 ). I believe this is a natural break area for tenors right? So I guess my question is once I get this FULL VOICE thing figured out ( not mix, head or falsetto ) my natural break at E4 should not be a problem, right? …..I’m hoping.

Paul Adrian, do you sing Lovin' Touchin Squeezin in full voice and would you mind telling me the note where your natural break is located. Anybody can chime in on this question if you wish.

Thanks!

...To your question:

Yes I do recommend you to practice going from a soft volume to a comfortably loud volume and back again...

exercises like these (crescendos, e scream, and TT) help you to get used to the feeling of using more power, identify how each note and vowel feels, and get used to having it as something unrelated to tension in unhelpful muscles...

As far as full Voice and your break, remember Jaime's WISE words "your voice should be a seamless instrument from top to bottom" (or something like that ).... That is ABSOLUTELY true... YOu just need to manage your support and avoid tension/constriction (use yawning and inhalation SENSATION as well as the power push to maintain proper support)... There is nothing special that happens in your break more than a discordination of you muscles... it really DOES NOT exist... and part of dissolving it is keeping that in mind...

QUOTE-------------------------------

As far as full Voice and your break, remember Jaime's WISE words "your voice should be a seamless instrument from top to bottom" (or something like that ).... That is ABSOLUTELY true... YOu just need to manage your support and avoid tension/constriction (use yawning and inhalation SENSATION as well as the power push to maintain proper support)... There is nothing special that happens in your break more than a discordination of you muscles... it really DOES NOT exist... and part of dissolving it is keeping that in mind...
------------------------------------------

Ok, it took me a while to get back to you cause I was working on releasing my constriction when the FRY sound starts around my virtual vocal breakpoint. I have to tell you that it does not feel like my "breakpoint DOES NOT EXIST". It feels like I have to change or flip vocal setups on the fly. I still have to plan for this before singing. Example, Styx's, Crystal Ball song, first line," I use to like TO (my breakpoint is between these two words) WALK a straight and .... ". I can do it most of the time but I have to think about it. I can feel a physical change in my vocal setup, but to my ear (via a recording) it sounds okay. So to sum it up: I think you are saying that by learning to release all constriction this "flip in my vocal setup sensation" shall cease to exist because my nervous system will have learn to coordinate this physical change in my vocal setup?

And there in lies your problem. You are "preparing" for the break, so mentally you have already accepted that it cannot be eliminated. Yes it takes time and there may still be a slight switching of gears, BUT, if you keep preparing then you'll never reach that day where it suddenly dissapears ;)QUIT preparing and just sing. If you break then you break. But eventually if you keep practicing and singing, you won't break anymore ;)

JV

Thanks, Jaime.

There is no break,
There is no break,
There is no break,
Just follow the RYV brick road...