Sofus987: I think that you might be right. It is difficult for me to distinguish if I'm doing that or not. The reasoning sounds just, transcending tone might be easier higher for just that reason. Therefore I was asking if someone could post a healthy but untrained chest to head voice scale so I could hear whether I'm doing it right.

Sofus987: Thanks a lot for the example! I think that I got the idea. So, the problem seems to be that I start in the flageolet and try to transcend to full voice causing a slip. Instead I should start from a coordination that I call myself as "Jon Anderson -feeling" that is not feeling the same as "King Diamond -feeling" . In the high they melt to same sensation, but below tenor c they feel a bit different. Cool!

18is9,

Exactly! I believe your understandings and feelings are correct.

I love this message board. I've really learned a lot and been encouraged by everyone here. Sometimes it is easy to be discourages. Then I come on here and usually find help for what ails me or someone having worse problems than me! hahah!

And that is why I created it:) It is a very laid back board and although it is for RYV discussions, I've always encouraged talks about other coaches and methods because I don't believe there is one solution to voice;) So I hope you all enjoy this little community and I thank younfor helping each other:)

Great discussion. For those of you with Breaking The Chains and also have other programs like Singing Success and Melissa Cross's (and of course RYV), is there enough unique information and exercises that you think it's worthwhile to get? I have those three other programs and trying to decide if I want to add yet another program, but will if it has some new stuff.

I've also been on quite the journey trying to find support. I think part of the problem is that there are literally layers upon layers of different muscles that squeeze in different directions in the stomach area, so no one teacher's description could really tell you which muscles to squeeze where, and it's a matter of finding the minimum most efficient ones to squeeze. I think the fact that you can do a situp while holding your breath illustrates this perfectly, and would seem to indicate the need to isolate those from whichever other muscles actually do the squeezing to not waste extra energy.

That said, I feel like I'm getting close to understanding support. I think it's helpful to think of an actual filled balloon blowing out air. If you take your hands and squeeze from the sides you will get an uneven rate of air as you constantly are re-adjusting your grip as the balloon shrinks. However, if you put the bottom on a table (opening pointed up) and gently push down you'll get a nice even stream. That's my latest theory on why/how the downward push works, it's preventing muscles from just squeezing directly inwards on the lungs in a haphazard way and rather uses everything below the lungs (organs, pelvis) as that 'table'. So while you are still using muscles, it is a static mass that is actually providing the push against the lungs which is much easier to control.

random1destiny,

"Support is to actually support the voice.

Support is to supply just the right amount of air pressure and air flow to the voice-mechanism for the specific sound you want to produce."

One of the most important thing to notice from this definition is, that the values/levels of air pressure and air flow changes all the time depending on the desired sound - and as a result you have to adjust the activation of your "support-muscles" to reach those dynamic levels. If you don't reach those levels you are not supporting - even though you have different amounts of "support-muscle" activation going on.

Ex. This means, that even though you are "power-pushing", you are maybe not supporting at all - and maybe wasting a lot of unnecessarily energy.

Hey guys, can I make a suggestion? If you can afford it take a skype lesson with Oiselle (Valerie Bastien). I was pretty sure what support was, but she explained it and had me doing it correctly in about 30 seconds. Her lessons are a little more affordable than some of the other instructors as well. She is very supportive. You won't feel like an idiot and she can help you troubleshoot your problem areas. I'm just saying what I experienced with her. Even if you don't take regular lessons, just taking a few a year can really help keep you from bad habits. All the vocal courses in the world aren't going to help you if your basics are screwed up and you don't know it. You will find that if you take a lesson you will iron out your basic problems and make more progress faster with your at home courses too.

Yes it's always good to have a good teacher! What did she show you about support Ben?

When you breathe in stand up straight with your sternum lifted. Put your hands on your sides down where the your floating ribs are. When you breathe in you should feel your ribs pushing your hands out to the sides. When you breathe out you should feel about the amount of tension/effort that it would take to blow out candles on a birthday cake. Don't try to hold the breath back. Just let it come out. She had me singing beautifully. I didn't even know I could sound that..........vibrant, big, and resonant. Really cool stuff.

I see, this is great basics about support.

Though IMO support is a bit more than that...

Well, I know that I can sing really well now. You can think whatever you want. All I know is what is working for me. I think people try to overcomplicated things. When I go higher I just tighten my lower abs just a little bit more and I don't have any problems.

That's great

Maybe you can post a clip of your singing that shows us what you've learned?

I might try to do that later. Why don't you do the same? It would be cool. Maybe we can help each other to do even better.

Sure,

Here is a clip from the musical Evita where I played the role of Ché (me with the hat):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7WBg1BKcxw

OMG! That was awesome! I could sing the last note, but not any other part . May I ask that how long have you been studying singing?

Yeah Valerie is a great teacher and actually the only other coach I've ever trained in my methods. Her teaching profile is on rocksource360.com.

That was very impressive! I'm no where near as advanced as you. I don't have that kind of power. My voice is more like James Taylor or Jim Croce. I sing a lot of singer/songwriter material. I started seriously trying to sing about a year and a half ago. How did you develop such range, tone, and power? What vocal fache are you?

Ben,

Thanks man.

Actually a lot of this comes from...yes you got it...support.

That's why I state the things I do about support! Another very important part is how you set up your coordinations in your larynx and vocal tract.

Vocal fach is not very important when it comes to contemporary music IMO.

I was just wondering if you were considered a baritone or a tenor.

I am considered to be a Baritone.

I actually recently played the role of "Gaston" in "Beauty And The Beast".

--But I never let that "label" limit me!

Oh no! I wasn't saying it as a limiting thing. I was just curious.

Good luck with that role. You seem to be a good actor as well as a great singer. Post some clips after you perform!

Alex,

Thanks a lot.

Can you instead give me a time and then I can tell you what mode is being used...that's a bit easier.

so for example the last few notes after 3:43, then from 0:29 to 0:50.......it's not like u are changing modes every other note, right? and also i wonder in CVT Katrin says that to achieve high notes you should raise larynx, which is kind of exact opposite of what SS teach, so i wonder if you do it...thanks

Alex,

From 3:43 it's: Edge > Overdrive > MLN (metal like neutral).

At 0:29 - 0:50 I'm changing between Curbing and Overdrive. The last long held note is Overdrive.

In regards to the larynx. For high notes you should allow your larynx to rise. And for lower notes you should let it lower.

I guess the reason why SS (and a lot of other teachers for that matter) says that you should have a stable larynx is because they somehow confuses avoiding constrictions with the position of the larynx.

Not at all!

I was genuinely interested in how your work with Oiselle has helped your singing...that's all.

(Also note that english is not my first language..so I'm sorry if my writings sometimes send the wrong signals)

And thank you for your kind words by the way.

Ok, thanks man. I didn't want there to be any bad blood between us. I know my limits and I know I can always learn from someone who is better than me. It just sounded like that to me in my head. I am sorry for being so defensive. I'm still a bit shy about my voice. I'll post something when I have time to record. Where are you from?

Did you use Raise Your Voice to improve your voice?

Ben,

I'm cool...no hard feelings.

I live in Denmark in Europe. I first bought RYV about 5 years ago and afterwards I have gotten most of Jaime's material. I think it has a lot of valuable information...I espeically like the "release program", I study Logopedics (Speech Pathology) so I know the benefical things from massage etc. But as a training method I have always primarely used Complete Vocal Technique (CVT).

Thanks friend. What is your real first name? Denmark sounds like a very interesting country. I lived in Germany for three years and got to see quite a bit of Europe. I didn't make it to Denmark though. Perhaps I can one day.

I like RYV a lot, but some of it is confusing and I had to reread stuff like 20 times before I "got" it. I like to use the scale exercises that Jamie has more than the isolation method. I started from scratch as a singer about a year and a half ago. I was and still am confused about my voice sometimes. There are times when I sound kind of baritonish and other times when I sound like a tenor. I think I may be some kind of low tenor or high baritone naturally. My speaking voice isn't very low.I always wanted to sing with my guitar. I can sing pop and softer ballad stuff pretty well. I'm trying to work on getting more of an "edge" to my voice without hurting myself. I have no idea really how to do it.

CVT seems interesting. I hear a lot of good things about it. Can you tell me what it is all about?

My name is Martin.

Yeah it can be difficult to understand new things and concepts. CVT is no different in that regard.

If you want more "edge" you probably have to use more twang and maybe also what CVT calls a "metallic mode".

Here is two videos where Cathrine Sadolin the author CVT explaines the basics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUCQ00VIeiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu6aPXoN3k0

LOL.. I always wondered where did The Martin go...Now I know.

I use the forum search function a lot :)

LOL....I'm still here.

Hi Martin, I'm Ben Stokes from Atlanta, Georgia, USA. Good to meet you.

I'll check out those videos. Thanks a lot! Rock on!

Ben from Atlanta, I was kinda hoping you'd say Ben Matlock, that'd be amusing. ;-)

hahahahhahahahh! I'd have a lot of senior-citizen fans. That's more than I have now. LOL!

i want voice lesson. really!

Hey sorry guys, I haven't been on here in a while... Too busy! But thanks Ben and Jaime for your positive feedback. BB, I'd love to help you with your voice... All of the advice in this thread is sound but sometimes it helps to have someone who knows what to listen for to tell you if you are doing the excises correctly and if not, what is going on and how to correct yourself.


You can contact me at valbastien@gmail.com if you're still interested :)

Thanks man! It is really hard to think inhalation sensation when doing full voice exercises especially when reaching higher notes!