perhaps in the future when my vocals are much better, i'm no expert yet i'm still on the beginnin of my journey! but thanks for your comments nonetheless and glad you resonate with them

What you said about head-voice being weak at first really helped me. I thought it was supposed to be a lot heavier. I mean I'd read the information about the pyramid and stuff, but It didn't make sense when I was trying to actually use it. I was pulling chest then just flipping into a falsetto head-voice.I now just drop the weight as I ascend and I don't have any noticeable break in my voice going up or down. I mean my head-voice isn't killer or powerful yet, but I'm on my way. I am not scared to use it and it sounds purddy. :) Your advice about that really helped me.

singing success sorted that out for me. before doing that i was under the impression that if i did headvoice right it would just sound perfect straight away, so obviously i'd pull up the chest sound as i went higher not correct. i went through singing success program wher he specifically says don't force or alter how the sound comes out, i followed this and it sorted out my problems, now i'm doing breaking the chains program which is strengthening the sound of my weak headvoice and its coming along great. soon i'll go back to RYV and do the exercises with my newfound knowledge. the pyramid diagram didn't really do much for me either. yeah it thins out but i didn't realise it'd sound just like falsetto which it does until you get it going strong. more coaches should talk about how YOU WILL SOUND when you first train the exercises, we just hear their voices when they are at the end of their journey and think that if we do it correctly we'll sound like them right away.

I had the exact same problem. I didn't know why I didn't sound strong in head-voice right off the bat. I wanted to sound like Steve Perry out of the gate! hahha! When I would go up into head-voice it sounded all weak and falsetto so I started thinking I needed to push harder to make it stronger. Sometimes it sounded good, but it really strained my voice bad. I agree. I think more vocal instructors should be more descriptive about how weak and bad it's going to sound at first. I stopped singing for a while because of it. Then I started experimenting with just letting my voice "go there" without trying to force it. I sang a song with just my guitar and voice at church one day and it had a lot of high notes where I was just letting my voice go. My wife said it was the best she ever hear me sing. Keep up the good work Phil. Others may have the same problems, but don't know how to articulate it.

Phil, I am using Breaking the Chains too. Can you tell me what your practice regime is like? I'm not sure if I'm doing enough with it to see maximum results. What do you do daily.

It's important you master the first disc. Kevin says it actually teaches you how to support your voice.

Yeah, I've talked with Kevin about it, but I'm wondering how many times and which exercises people do daily and such just to get an idea. I know about mastering the first disc before moving on. What I want to know is what constitutes "mastering"? Does it mean you can hit every single not one every exercise easily? Some of the notes are too low and I'll never be able to hit them. I usually pick three exercises and do them two to three times a day. Once I can do it pretty easily and hit most of the notes I add a new one or two.

Ben if you are unsure, then practice both cd's all the exercises every session. From day one of getting the cds i did this.

i don't practice everyday, my other passions need time also. i tend to be able to practice on monday wednesday friday and saturday. results are consistent and progressing well. i try to sing a few songs afterwards if i have time, not always the case unfortuantely

as for what my current routine is:

i was going through both cds, all of the exercises. now i pick a few of the exercises from the first one and do all of the ones on the second. as for "mastering" i think what he means is, when you feel that the exercises are too easy to get any noticeable gains. my voice can handle most of the first exercises without any problems, but there are a few there that are still great. if you are unsure then do all of them, that is the most assured way that you will be doing the right thing.

its better for you to do all rather than pick a few and alternate everyday. skill development comes from consistency,racked up sessions of the same thing. that way you can easily compare how you did from last session. if you do 3 different ones everyday, lets say "aeiou" exercise on day 1, then it will be something like 6 sessions before you get through them all and return to do your second "aeiou" session. it feels like your training a lot but you aren't if you go that way, try and get them all done. if time is limited then don't go downscale just go upsccale and skip to next one. also if time is limited cut out the ones that are repeated like "yay" scale get rid of that because yay is used on the challengeing "yay ee yay" scale do the harder one. but if you have time do them all. i can do the scales with no breaks if i go softly but now since i'm focusing on building the power, i try to add a little more power every session, over time and distance this will build my higher notes into strong sounds.

at first your head voice soudns like falsetto, problem is people think IT IS falsetto and so think they're doing it wrong when they are doing it right!

Hey Phil,

Thanks for the answer. What I was saying is that Kevin recommended that I pick two or three exercises and master them and once they are mastered(sometimes it takes me a few weeks) then move on to a couple more then master them until I get all of them down before going to cd 2. That is what I am doing. I just didn't know the frequency that other people use. Do you do the 1 exercise like 10 times in a row then do the next one 10 times in a row......etc. I do the same exercises every day until I really get them down. I don't skip around.

the way you described your training sounds good.

i just do the cds as they are. no repeating of the exercise 10 times or whatnot, although thats not a bad idea at all. if you are receiving consistent gains then keep doing what you are doing, you certainly don't want to ruin whats working, as skill development is delicate, its easy to do it wrong than to do it right. there are many variables that must be in the right balance to ensure consistent gains.

with respect to kevin's course and how effective it is, it's horribly layed out. theres absolutlely no information on what type of routine one should set up to practice, so i've assumed to just do both cds as they are. and contrary to what he claimed about the solfege exercise he DOESNT explain what it is actually for, he just says "do this on one breath". the course is filled with MANY MANY typos , almost every second sentence. I find things like this irritating as it shows it is a rushed job. theres several things like "this scale is descending" and then it won't actually be descending, or like on the burning bridges exercise, he didn't bother to actually create a seperate piano track wihtout his demo. its like he rushed it all. its a great course but little things like this really are no excuse.

I pretty much agree with you. There's a little lack of information in some parts. I would've been so confused about his constant saying "don't let go of the support" if I didn't already know how to support. Still, I, on my own selected a few exercises to go through.

On the first CD, I really like the

1. hum to vowels
2. fry the frog
(On the above two, I focus mainly on resonance. I get my whole head vibrating, and some would describe it as feeling like a "cloud." I try not to focus on one particular spot but see every space in my head as that one spot. This doesn't necessarily mean singing at loud volume, but I find the major buzzing, even headache-inducing, gives me the potential to easily crescendo.)

3. "yeah" exercise (right after the above one)
The effort should be from down below on this one, and don't be afraid to lighten up to prevent straining. You can still have a light, but full sound with good support.

4. The Stutter
This one was recommended to me by Kevin himself on his blog, and it's helping me manage strong support on light singing, helping me to sing more like Steve Perry does (but still sounding like myself, it's just his fundamental approach of a light, strong sound that I want so badly)

And from CD2, my favorites are the Muh to Mah exercise and the Volume Swells. These two are good at strengthening and coordinating high, strong notes.

If you like Steve Perry you'll know what I mean when he has these really unique sounding high nasally (actually it's not nasal it's behind his nose-sounding) tones for some of the tenor range notes - like in Don't Stop Believing for example on the "in the night" and "woah-oh-ah-oh-ho" things at the end. Focusing on the whole head (hard palate, teeth, soft palate, forehead, eyes,back of the head, down the back of my throat) really let me get that sound and I was so amazed. I don't want to copy Pery but I want to capture some of his essence when covering a Journey song. Still workin' on it though.

Just some suggestions on how I practice and adore Perry lol. I've only been singing for a year, almost exactly and my original range was strained up to G4. Now A4 and B4 are pretty easy for me, and If I really relax and get into it I can sing to F#5 with a pretty strong head voice with some pharyngeal. I did vocalize up to a B5 too in a pure head voice (this is how pure head voice sounds, if you wanted to know...almost like falsetto) on a scale, and I recorded it too if you want to hear (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E9eqKsrR_A), but what I'm saying basically is just keep at it. My philosophy is you'll get it eventually if you really want it, because if you really want it, you won't stop trying.

let me get this right: when kevin richards talks about support he's not talking about tensing is he? he's just talking about inhaling into the abdomen instead of crappy chest breath right?

i've always been confused with jaime's talk about the "power push". in the book he says that you sholdn't tense the stomach, then on the very next sentence he tells you to tense the stomach.

i'm asking because i breathe into the abdomen and don't do any tightening or any "push" and can hit notes loudly without issue.

Yeah.... I was wondering the same thing. I think his idea of support is more of a natural thing, like when he describes the "OW" thing as if he stubbed his toe. So instead of trying to make support happen I try to let it happen and keep a small steady airflow going. I do think there is some tensing going on but I'm not so sure as to where from the point of Kevin Richards. Definitely no chest breathing though. I really wish he defined how breath compression works and how it feels though. I'm not even sure if breath compression and support are two different things or not..

I had an awesome lesson with Oiselle and she explained support so easily that I couldn't believe that I never got it before. Take a breath low (not with your chest, but letting your lower belly and especially your floating ribs expand) and when you breathe out you should tense your abdominals very slightly like you are blowing out the candles on a birthday cake. Any more than that can lead to tension in other parts of your body. I've been doing this since our lesson and having a much easier time singing and vocalizing. I think this is also what Kevin is talking about.

cool that's what i've been doing all this time, glad i am on the right track.

I found out that I was using a little too much support until I had the lesson with her. I starting doing the birthday candle thing and my singing and vocalizing had gotten much easier. Sometimes when I go for a really high note I will tense my lower abs just a little bit more and hit it easily. I think that might be the power-push. If you are tightening up as if someone is going to punch you in the stomach then it's probably too much. :)I was blowing too much air through and trying too hard to sing. When Jamie, Oiselle, and Kevin say that singing should feel effortless and easy they really mean it!

yeah they say it should be effortless but their writing contradicts it. thomass appell for example says exactly what you said NOT to do, he says "tighten the stomach like your bracing for a punch" jaime says "don't tighten the stomach because it tightens the throat" then straight away says "tighten the stomach" he also mentioned on his jonathan spencer video that he gets muscle soreness from tightening so hard. i dont' really get it beacuse i don't feel tightening that hard does anything really, i've tried both and found the conclusion you've reached is also the way i do it. seems to work fine

Well, I haven't read Thomas' book, but I have Elizabeth Sabine's book and she says the same thing. She says that you should tighten really hard the higher you go. Some kind of electrical energy mumbo jumbo that makes no sense. Maybe they are right and I'm wrong, but I know that when I tighten the crap out of my abs my voice sounds bad. When I just do a lighter support and breathe deep and low it sounds great. I just tighten a little bit more on my lower abs when I sing really high. It works and I sound better than I ever have. The confusion due to multiple opinions is very hard on us mere students. Human physiology is all the same. There really can only be one most scientifically efficient way to sing. That is my opinion anyway. People can approach it differently mentally and stuff, but you can only move/sing/play an instrument most efficiently one way. I want to do it the easy and efficient way!

it seems like no one has found the true scientific way so it is more of an artform at the moment until such a method is found.

Yeah, but logically there has to only be one MOST efficient way to sing. That equals maximum amount of tone/power/expression with the lease amount of effort. I'm sure it is complicated with a lot of different facets. That is what I'm searching for. I guess that is why I have so many books/cds/dvds of singing lessons and courses. I find that what some teachers say contradicts what others say and sometimes what they say contradicts other things they have said. I try to root out those things and figure out what makes sense. I do my own "experiments" to see what works. It is good to study singers with good technique and see what they are doing too. I don't think you can call something an "artform" just because we don't know as much about it as we could. We don't know all there is to know about a lot of things. We can still be logical and question when things don't make sense.

You write: "I don't think you can call something an "artform" just because we don't know as much about it as we could."
I'm not calling it an artform, i'm calling the METHODS OF TRAINING, an artform, because they aren't 100% biomechanically successfull. they offer different results to different people.

YOu are correct that there has to be a BEST WAY, a biomechanical method that will be the best and ALWAYS work. all these courses are more of an artform than a science because they don't work 100% of the time on 100% of the people.

Phil, I totally agree with you in principle. It's just the terminology that we disagree on.

that's fine, terminology doesn't mean ****. we agree the tomato is healthy but disagree on whether its a fruit or vegetable, doesn't matter, what matters is that its healthy!

First you have to convince me that tomatoes are healthy for you! hahahahhah!

I'm pickin up what you are layin down brotha!

Either way I want to be able to sing as easily as possible with maximum results. There is a lot of confusion about singing out there. For the most part I think that Vendera, Richards, Manning know their stuff. I just don't always "get" the core concept of what they are teaching. It's not their fault. People understand things differently. I never really understood what proper placement was until I watched Melissa Cross' Zen of Screaming. I didn't get a whole lot from the video except now I know how awesome she is to a bunch of fairly ignorant metal core guys AND she makes this point to have her students put a pencil n their mouth (like a horse bit kind of) and practice pitching the tone over the pencil. It may sound corny, but it worked for me. Now I totally get it and my voice rings and isn't so tired now.

I have found this thread very informing and helpful, thanks guys! I have request for phil or Ben or anyone feeling properly advanced . You guys were talking about how the head voice sounded falsettoish and weak in the beginning. Could someone of you make a short recording of singing a scale up and down or something like that with three steps? First you could try to sound like in the beginning, weak and thin, then with fully mature head voice and then something in between. Or is it so that once you get the full head voice stuff going on there is no going back?

I have found some of the examples for example in Brett Manning frustrating. Lip rolls and bubbles are easy to imitate, but immediately when he starts to demonstrate the "ma ma ma maaaaa" -kind of stuff, the high parts sound so strong and pro that I have no clue if I'm doing my exercises even half way correct because I just do not sound anything like it. He should have recorded some noob doing the example, not a well trained pro .

Actually support is not that difficult to grasp when you know the anatomy and physiology of voice production (and a bit of physics).

Unfortunately most of the teachers you've mentioned don't seem to have that much knowledge in those fields. And that's probably why most of their explanations are based on sensations or images which can very often be confusing if you can't relate to them.

Thank you for your input. I don't know about Phil, but I don't think that we are advanced. We are just students like you discussing what we have discovered so far. I don't feel qualified to really teach anyone anything. One thing I learned is that when you go higher that you shouldn't get louder. If you do that it means that something isn't coordinating properly and you are trying to "muscle" your way through that problem area. You can end up really straining your voice. Don't be afraid to let go and relax and sound kind of "thin and girlish" as you go up. If you keep practicing and doing this eventually you will have the coordination to add more power and resonance without getting louder. Practice doing some humming on scales with a pencil in your mouth and get the resonance over the pencil. It'll help you with proper placement. I found that if I let the resonance go below the pencil my voice goes down in my throat and gets fatigued really easily. Once you can do that with the pencil then take the pencil out and focus on that sensation and think of an imaginary pencil and pitching over it while you practice all of your scales. Remember, this is what worked for me. I do not claim to be an expert.

Hi Ben, if you choose to gradually change to a "lighter" coordination when ascending in pitch you will be able to keep an even volume. However if you choose to stay in the same coordination the volume will increase. Both aproaches are equally healthy if done right - and it's up to you to choose which sound you like the best.

Thanks for the advice man. Like I said, I'm no expert. I'm just discussing my journey so far and what I have found to be true with my voice training so far. For me to go above my break easily right now that is what I have to do. I'm working very slowly and gradually on getting my full voice up to snuff with the transcending tone exercise. I think that learning the lighter coordination first might be a better approach so that people don't hurt their voices. That is my opinion.

Ben,

Great, just keep on doing what works for you! Just note that it's not unhealthy to get louder when singing higher in your range - it's a personal preference.

What I was saying was that you shouldn't HAVE to get louder (i.e. shouting) to get those notes. Getting louder just because you can't control your voice is not good. That's what I was talking about.

Ben,

Yes you completely right. It's not something you HAVE to do - it depends on your preference.

Ex. here is a loud sound with a "shouting" character:

http://www.box.net/shared/6x87ftv47v

I will defer to someone else to do a recording.

Just so you know, head voice is a place. Falsetto is a tonal color. You can sing the same notes in full head voice as you can in head voice. It is usually much harder to get the coordination right for full voice though and takes practice. The Transcending tone exercise in Jamie's book. It feels really strange at first. Once you can do it well you can sing that note from a pure light falsetto sound to full voice and anything in between. It gives you options. When you do those head exercises just make sure you aren't straining in any way.

Thanks, Ben. Really funny for me is that transcending tone exercise is easier to do above tenor c than below it. Singing high, it just requires more energy, but lower it gets flippy and jumpy. I guess it is because of constraints and wrong air pressure (or too much air through the cords).

My history is that I've been singing in high, loud falsetto a lot (more than ten years). I've done King Diamond tribute band stuff, sung Yes, Rush, and that sort of music. It is hard for me to know if the weak, falsetto-like tone is weak head voice or just falsetto. Or if it even matters. I think that I can do a slide from high to low with an audible break in between, but just lowering larynx makes the break disappear. However, it makes me sound more like a classical counter-tenor than a rock singer .

Anyway, it is nice to hear that other people are struggling with similar problems.

I'm curious. What are the highest and lowest notes you can comfortably sing? It sounds to me like you need to work more on your lower register and balance your voice. Maybe you are blowing too much air through on your higher stuff too and just don't realize it. When I get above my break it seems like it's easier to sing(less effort) than lower now that I know how to do it. Even on your lowest notes you should feel facial resonance.

My lowest notes are somewhere between Queensryche song "Speak" and Type O Negative "Girlfriend's Girlfriend". D below lowest note on guitar. Comfortable high chest note is c octave below high tenor c. Comfortable high falsetto is g above tenor c and without whistle the falsetto goes up to c above tenor c with really tight leather trousers on (think about Child in Time). So, in practice, whatever you can take on acoustic guitar I can sing. Somehow, some Geoff Tate stuff is nice for me, low end is easy, also high part is fine, I'm just missing the best part in between.

I have been discussing the lowest notes with my teacher, and she also thinks that on the low end the facial resonance should be there. For me, it tends to slip loo low, throat and chest.

But now that you say it, perhaps it would be best for me to focus on the "comfort zone" for a while and take a break on the higher notes. Try to see if I can get the easy parts of voice even more focused and unconstrained and try later to maintain that feeling.

I think you should keep working on your high voice. Just work on the middle and lower parts equally to get it even. Maybe devote a little more time to your weak areas. You can do all of them. I have found Jamie's isolation exercises to be quite good if you understand how to do them properly. I use them in conjunction with scale based exercises which I actually do more of. I think your teacher is right. Just because you can make a sound doesn't mean it's in your singing range. I made the mistake of singing too low by not keeping the sound in the mask and I couldn't figure out why my voice was always tired a just a little strained feeling. I am no expert. I just say what I have experienced. I just know that you shouldn't have to force anything. If you have to force it you are doing something wrong. I'm still devloping my full voice. I mainly do a falsetto sound(it sounds good with the kind of music I sing) but I'm working on getting more full voice up there.

18is9, there's a good explanation for that. It seems that you are using what is often referred to as "flageolet coordination". When singing below high C in this coordination it's difficult to build up the subglottal pressure and thereby increasing the volume without changing to another coordination which most often results in a "flip". However when singing above high C in the "flageolet coordination" the vocal folds are now so stretched and tense that you are able to increase the subglottal preassure and increase the volume without "flipping" to another coordination.

I guess this is what you are experiencing when trying out the transcending tone exercise below and above high C.

Sofus987: I think that you might be right. It is difficult for me to distinguish if I'm doing that or not. The reasoning sounds just, transcending tone might be easier higher for just that reason. Therefore I was asking if someone could post a healthy but untrained chest to head voice scale so I could hear whether I'm doing it right.

When you are below high C try to avoid singing to quiet on the soft parts of the transcending tone exercise. Also a good way is to start with the reverse - meaning going from loud to soft.

You can also deliberately try to "flip" between two soft notes on a siren - and then pay close attention and notice how the difference between the "non-flageolet" and "flageolet" feels to you. Here is an ex. of that:

http://www.box.net/shared/el6osydvy8

Sofus987: Thanks a lot for the example! I think that I got the idea. So, the problem seems to be that I start in the flageolet and try to transcend to full voice causing a slip. Instead I should start from a coordination that I call myself as "Jon Anderson -feeling" that is not feeling the same as "King Diamond -feeling" . In the high they melt to same sensation, but below tenor c they feel a bit different. Cool!

18is9,

Exactly! I believe your understandings and feelings are correct.

I love this message board. I've really learned a lot and been encouraged by everyone here. Sometimes it is easy to be discourages. Then I come on here and usually find help for what ails me or someone having worse problems than me! hahah!

And that is why I created it:) It is a very laid back board and although it is for RYV discussions, I've always encouraged talks about other coaches and methods because I don't believe there is one solution to voice;) So I hope you all enjoy this little community and I thank younfor helping each other:)

Great discussion. For those of you with Breaking The Chains and also have other programs like Singing Success and Melissa Cross's (and of course RYV), is there enough unique information and exercises that you think it's worthwhile to get? I have those three other programs and trying to decide if I want to add yet another program, but will if it has some new stuff.

I've also been on quite the journey trying to find support. I think part of the problem is that there are literally layers upon layers of different muscles that squeeze in different directions in the stomach area, so no one teacher's description could really tell you which muscles to squeeze where, and it's a matter of finding the minimum most efficient ones to squeeze. I think the fact that you can do a situp while holding your breath illustrates this perfectly, and would seem to indicate the need to isolate those from whichever other muscles actually do the squeezing to not waste extra energy.

That said, I feel like I'm getting close to understanding support. I think it's helpful to think of an actual filled balloon blowing out air. If you take your hands and squeeze from the sides you will get an uneven rate of air as you constantly are re-adjusting your grip as the balloon shrinks. However, if you put the bottom on a table (opening pointed up) and gently push down you'll get a nice even stream. That's my latest theory on why/how the downward push works, it's preventing muscles from just squeezing directly inwards on the lungs in a haphazard way and rather uses everything below the lungs (organs, pelvis) as that 'table'. So while you are still using muscles, it is a static mass that is actually providing the push against the lungs which is much easier to control.

random1destiny,

"Support is to actually support the voice.

Support is to supply just the right amount of air pressure and air flow to the voice-mechanism for the specific sound you want to produce."

One of the most important thing to notice from this definition is, that the values/levels of air pressure and air flow changes all the time depending on the desired sound - and as a result you have to adjust the activation of your "support-muscles" to reach those dynamic levels. If you don't reach those levels you are not supporting - even though you have different amounts of "support-muscle" activation going on.

Ex. This means, that even though you are "power-pushing", you are maybe not supporting at all - and maybe wasting a lot of unnecessarily energy.

Hey guys, can I make a suggestion? If you can afford it take a skype lesson with Oiselle (Valerie Bastien). I was pretty sure what support was, but she explained it and had me doing it correctly in about 30 seconds. Her lessons are a little more affordable than some of the other instructors as well. She is very supportive. You won't feel like an idiot and she can help you troubleshoot your problem areas. I'm just saying what I experienced with her. Even if you don't take regular lessons, just taking a few a year can really help keep you from bad habits. All the vocal courses in the world aren't going to help you if your basics are screwed up and you don't know it. You will find that if you take a lesson you will iron out your basic problems and make more progress faster with your at home courses too.

Yes it's always good to have a good teacher! What did she show you about support Ben?

When you breathe in stand up straight with your sternum lifted. Put your hands on your sides down where the your floating ribs are. When you breathe in you should feel your ribs pushing your hands out to the sides. When you breathe out you should feel about the amount of tension/effort that it would take to blow out candles on a birthday cake. Don't try to hold the breath back. Just let it come out. She had me singing beautifully. I didn't even know I could sound that..........vibrant, big, and resonant. Really cool stuff.

I see, this is great basics about support.

Though IMO support is a bit more than that...

Well, I know that I can sing really well now. You can think whatever you want. All I know is what is working for me. I think people try to overcomplicated things. When I go higher I just tighten my lower abs just a little bit more and I don't have any problems.

That's great

Maybe you can post a clip of your singing that shows us what you've learned?

I might try to do that later. Why don't you do the same? It would be cool. Maybe we can help each other to do even better.

Sure,

Here is a clip from the musical Evita where I played the role of Ché (me with the hat):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7WBg1BKcxw

OMG! That was awesome! I could sing the last note, but not any other part . May I ask that how long have you been studying singing?

Yeah Valerie is a great teacher and actually the only other coach I've ever trained in my methods. Her teaching profile is on rocksource360.com.

Thank you for the kind words.

I started singing about 10 years ago.

That was very impressive! I'm no where near as advanced as you. I don't have that kind of power. My voice is more like James Taylor or Jim Croce. I sing a lot of singer/songwriter material. I started seriously trying to sing about a year and a half ago. How did you develop such range, tone, and power? What vocal fache are you?

Ben,

Thanks man.

Actually a lot of this comes from...yes you got it...support.

That's why I state the things I do about support! Another very important part is how you set up your coordinations in your larynx and vocal tract.

Vocal fach is not very important when it comes to contemporary music IMO.

I was just wondering if you were considered a baritone or a tenor.

I am considered to be a Baritone.

I actually recently played the role of "Gaston" in "Beauty And The Beast".

--But I never let that "label" limit me!

Oh no! I wasn't saying it as a limiting thing. I was just curious.

Good luck with that role. You seem to be a good actor as well as a great singer. Post some clips after you perform!

Wow, that was really amazing.......can you tell me please, what mode or modes were you singing there and tell me the time of the modes, I would reaaaally appreciate it.
(I went briefly through CVT just yesterday and wonder if i get how do modes sound)

Alex,

Thanks a lot.

Can you instead give me a time and then I can tell you what mode is being used...that's a bit easier.

so for example the last few notes after 3:43, then from 0:29 to 0:50.......it's not like u are changing modes every other note, right? and also i wonder in CVT Katrin says that to achieve high notes you should raise larynx, which is kind of exact opposite of what SS teach, so i wonder if you do it...thanks

Alex,

From 3:43 it's: Edge > Overdrive > MLN (metal like neutral).

At 0:29 - 0:50 I'm changing between Curbing and Overdrive. The last long held note is Overdrive.

In regards to the larynx. For high notes you should allow your larynx to rise. And for lower notes you should let it lower.

I guess the reason why SS (and a lot of other teachers for that matter) says that you should have a stable larynx is because they somehow confuses avoiding constrictions with the position of the larynx.

Am I detecting a hint of passive-aggressive condescension? That would not be cool. I never said I was an expert. I am just sharing what I have learned so far.

Not at all!

I was genuinely interested in how your work with Oiselle has helped your singing...that's all.

(Also note that english is not my first language..so I'm sorry if my writings sometimes send the wrong signals)

And thank you for your kind words by the way.

Ok, thanks man. I didn't want there to be any bad blood between us. I know my limits and I know I can always learn from someone who is better than me. It just sounded like that to me in my head. I am sorry for being so defensive. I'm still a bit shy about my voice. I'll post something when I have time to record. Where are you from?

Did you use Raise Your Voice to improve your voice?

Ben,

I'm cool...no hard feelings.

I live in Denmark in Europe. I first bought RYV about 5 years ago and afterwards I have gotten most of Jaime's material. I think it has a lot of valuable information...I espeically like the "release program", I study Logopedics (Speech Pathology) so I know the benefical things from massage etc. But as a training method I have always primarely used Complete Vocal Technique (CVT).

Thanks friend. What is your real first name? Denmark sounds like a very interesting country. I lived in Germany for three years and got to see quite a bit of Europe. I didn't make it to Denmark though. Perhaps I can one day.

I like RYV a lot, but some of it is confusing and I had to reread stuff like 20 times before I "got" it. I like to use the scale exercises that Jamie has more than the isolation method. I started from scratch as a singer about a year and a half ago. I was and still am confused about my voice sometimes. There are times when I sound kind of baritonish and other times when I sound like a tenor. I think I may be some kind of low tenor or high baritone naturally. My speaking voice isn't very low.I always wanted to sing with my guitar. I can sing pop and softer ballad stuff pretty well. I'm trying to work on getting more of an "edge" to my voice without hurting myself. I have no idea really how to do it.

CVT seems interesting. I hear a lot of good things about it. Can you tell me what it is all about?

My name is Martin.

Yeah it can be difficult to understand new things and concepts. CVT is no different in that regard.

If you want more "edge" you probably have to use more twang and maybe also what CVT calls a "metallic mode".

Here is two videos where Cathrine Sadolin the author CVT explaines the basics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUCQ00VIeiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu6aPXoN3k0

LOL.. I always wondered where did The Martin go...Now I know.

I use the forum search function a lot :)

LOL....I'm still here.

Hi Martin, I'm Ben Stokes from Atlanta, Georgia, USA. Good to meet you.

I'll check out those videos. Thanks a lot! Rock on!

Ben from Atlanta, I was kinda hoping you'd say Ben Matlock, that'd be amusing. ;-)

hahahahhahahahh! I'd have a lot of senior-citizen fans. That's more than I have now. LOL!

i want voice lesson. really!

Hey sorry guys, I haven't been on here in a while... Too busy! But thanks Ben and Jaime for your positive feedback. BB, I'd love to help you with your voice... All of the advice in this thread is sound but sometimes it helps to have someone who knows what to listen for to tell you if you are doing the excises correctly and if not, what is going on and how to correct yourself.


You can contact me at valbastien@gmail.com if you're still interested :)

Thanks man! It is really hard to think inhalation sensation when doing full voice exercises especially when reaching higher notes!