Ok here's some audio samples of what I'm talking about. Maybe someone can steer me in the right direction, lol.

G3-Grit
http://picosong.com/C4j/

G4-Belt/Scream
http://picosong.com/C4t/

C4-C5 Siren/Scream...this one's kinda sloppy
http://picosong.com/C47/

Wildcat:

Brett manning recommends doing NOTHING for support/breath. do you obey this? or when you practice do you apply RYV's support/placement? My dilemma, is that when i apply RYV's support, and try to do the exercises in brett manning, my voice flips into falsetto rather than bridging smoothly wihtout breaks. if i do NOTHING as manning suggests my voice smoothly connects. but if i do nothing with the support my notes sound weak. If i do the support and placement i have to push hard and sing loudly to hit the high notes, if i let it go and just do it as brett manning says, it becomes incredibly easy but sounds crap. encountered this?

I have encountered that and no I don't follow it. When I do Brett's stuff, I apply a very slight amount of support. In one of his colleague's programs, the "Professional Singer's Warmup," there is the steady breathing in and out for 5 counts, and then in for 5 counts and out for 10, similar to some of Jaime's breathing exercises. In that he says to blow out air like blowing out a candle, and when one does this, it needs to be done from below, or of else the throat picks up the weight to support. I know he doesn't say much about support but he does do it. I think he tries to get singers to support (lightly though) through the exercises and as a result, have it be unconscious. But of course, if someone is doing the exercises wrongly, they can still make the correct sound, but squeeze the threat until the pain is unbearable.

i know this thread is moving in and out of different topics but such is the nature of true discussion:

wildcat: what you said sort of confirms my opinion on the ability to convey teaching methods. for example, jaime doesn't emphasise scales, yet I know he's done a billion of them in his time. I believe its beneficial that new students will do scales rather than skip them. it builds up skills. i believe if you skip the journey and just practice the conclusion you'll get less results. you may have troubles which if you had been doing scales in the past would have fixed the problem. it's always hard to pin down what exercise is getting what result, and often times its a combination of many different things, but if a singer thinks it's just one thing he'll just do that one thing, and it may not work perfectly. I think this is precicesly why i haven't been able to just use RYV exclusively, beacuse there are things i need to train that jaime has probably trained in the past but now considers unimportant as its all internalised? who knows, in the end you find what works don't you and stick to it.

so you are saying manning actually does use a support but doesn't SAY IT because he worries students will over do it? if so, i believe thats a teaching error and its a shame i have to say this but now when i hear a teacher of some sort of craft teaching, in the back of my mind i'm always thinking "okay he's saying that, but is this really how you develop it? or was it a culmination of different things and he just thinks its from this one exercise?"

in the end its a faith based thing. you put faith in someone or some method that you believe has what you need, and you stick with it consistently and hopefully its not a waste of time, hopefully you get something out of it. this is why its imperative that coaches demonstrate their singing ability as it instantly gives them a credibility boost. its a win win for both teacher and student.

I think we need a new thread for this, but for now, it never occurred to me before that in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdHIeZnh378), Brett does say that the singer does need support, but after that he goes off on a tangent about how so many singers improperly use it. He focuses on vocal fold closure, but from my singing experience, I always had straining in my throat (along with the cord closure, of course)until I realized how lower support should feel. One point that Manning and his associates make is the important usage of a consistent airflow throughout the range, and many other teachers do use this. I try to keep it as consistent as possible, depending on the tone that I want, and it helps allot. The problem with SS products though, is they don't really say HOW to do this, and that it should come naturally. Some people on this forum and others have mentioned that natural breathing at birth doesn't necessarily equate to "natural" breathing adopted from bad habits along the way. And even if the belly and side muscles and waist come out, there's a certain way to do it, and it cant be forced, which is what I also think Brett is trying to get at. I used to force my breath around and crazily hold onto it, but I've realized that for most of the time, support for me is only moderately tiring.

On a different note, some scales are very important. For example I really liked the bridging exercises in Mastering Mix because they go from 1st to 3rd (I think) in a scale, and for some reason this sequence of notes really accentuates a change of resonance moving upward from the mouth to the head.

I practice around with three different programs and it definitely makes a difference to just grab as many perspectives as you can. You never know what might work and what might not work for you. Only thing for sure though, is that if something's not working for you and you keep doing it that way, you won't get anywhere being stuck in that mindset.

interesting video, he's obviously changed his perspective, because in the singing success program he specifically says that support and breathing doesn't matter. I was the one that was saying that bad breathing habits are picked up through life in that other post. This video seems to suggest a mild support. jaimes seems to suggest adjusting the intensity of your support/push to your intensity of your vocals. Thanks for the vid, its cleared a lot up for me, because i've been struggling with what to do, brett was saying no support and jaime was saying support. my problem is that i can get up to c5 in full voice with jaimes support and can't go higher. i don't feel any pain but its very very hard on those last notes effort wise. whereas brett manning's no support my voice goes through all its bridges naturally and smoothly up to c5 without any tension, but the tone sucks and sounds like falsetto. over time and distance hopefully i can brdige the benefits of both methods and get the results i want.

btw i actually have mastering mix but thought i shouldn't go through it until i do the SS course. Whats your opinion?

I would say give it a try! You clearly have the knowledge and understanding for someone who is insightful about singing. It's not a bad idea to try bringing something new and fresh into the equation to see if it helps or not with any existing problems. That being said, you'll see alot that's in MM was in SS. He just places exercises and variations of exercises in there as a more extensive way of training the voice. I find most of the scales very fun to sing, but there are some tough ones that take a while to get right.

I personally have a lot of trouble with edgy,sounds on an "uh." If I concentrate and really keep my airflow to a minimum I can get it, but I really have to use the most minimal amount of air, otherwise my throat picks up the strain and squeeze to make the sound. I know this is the wrong thread, but do you have any tips on this?

I'd like to add that for rock and otherwise loud and intense music, the CVT modes overdrive and edge can be beneficial. Perhaps guys like me have been downplaying their importance and spoken too highly of curbing. But you should ask yourself if you want a restrained, shouty or a screamy sound to determine your overall volume (medium or maximum) and twang. Just make sure that your volume comes from placement and support and not from pushing and straining your throat, just like Jamie talks about in his book.

In regards to support I would like to add the following definition:

"Support is to actually support the voice.

Support is to supply just the right amount of air pressure and air flow to the voice-mechanism for the specific sound you want to produce."

One of the most important thing to notice from this definition is, that the values/levels of air pressure and air flow changes all the time depending on the desired sound - and as a result you have to adjust the activation of your "support-muscles" to reach those dynamic levels. If you don't reach those levels you are not supporting - even though you have different amounts of "support-muscle" activation going on. :)

Ok, so this more or less answers my question then. If I want that distortion in my mid-range and high notes, they are going to be loud. All my support is coming from my my lower abs and back, to achieve said effect, so my throat stays pretty open and doesn't strain. In CVT terms, I would like to get the same effect in curbing as opposed to overdrive? That's basically like middle voice right? I guess it's a matter of trying to get that twang in there..

As far as the Brett Manning stuff...for the guys that have hijacked my thread...joking, lol. IMO, the singing success stuff, SLS, is good for maybe pop and country music. It seems to me that they totally disregard breath support and attempt to "train" your cords to zip up for high notes through exercises that force your cords into zipping. That's why I think Manning's high notes sound so weak...they lack the proper support to make them more powerful. I trained with an SLS coach for about a year and decided that Speech Level Singing wasn't for me. If you want to sing rock, I think SLS is a good starting point to build on, but singing rock takes a lot more intensity and power. These are just my experiences. Thought I would share

Derek,

I'm a little unsure if I understand your question correctly..so please forgive me if my anwser is way of.

In regards to volume the clips you posted are some of the softest ways to do rasp/grit. And in regards to how it "feels", then with time and practice theese new coordinations will feel "easier" because your muscles will adapt to them (of course if you do it correctly - which it indicates since you state that it feels ok). :)

Sofus987 ,

The G3 clip and the C5 slide I can do softer and with little effort. It's the G4 that is the hardest for me to do. I sing it clean at different volumes, but if I add the rasp, the volume on a scale of 1-10, is prob about a 9, lol. It's in this area of my voice, prob around B3-A4 where I just can't nail the grit without loads of support. So my question was, will practicing it like the clip I posted eventually become easier. I think you answered it though....I need to figure out this twang thing too, lol.

i just reached the edgy sound exercise on SS. i do find it a bit hard, because my voice connects fine without it. you only need it to help connect through the hard parts of your bridge, if you listen to the examples the singers don't even sound like their doing it, only do as much as you need. if you flip then add a bit more edge on that area i think. i have gone back to singing very softly on songs and placing finger under my chin, making sure i have no tension when i sing. when doing this i can hit all the notes i would ever dream of wanting, but very weakly. this is very encouraging, all i have to worry about is slowly carving them into a powerful sound. may take many months but its worht it isn't it.

sorry about hijacking your thread :-) we're done now i think lol

I don´t know why people are complaining so much about SS being too soft for rock. Maybe they don´t use distortion or a shouty sound because that´s not what they´re looking for, but you make it look like a falsetto thing! Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmmjjFxUSZs

Now if you know CVT, you may dissagree with what he said about a healthy way to do it, but here you can see SS principles (vocal cord compression) with a little bit of grit.

I don´t think that sounds too soft at all! in fact, one of the main problems I got with SS was that I was straining too much to not disconnect into falsetto and keep the sound resonant and full like the demonstrations. Now I read all the time that it was too soft? wow, I must got lost somewhere!

I believe that if a method like ex. SS helps singers to reach their singing goal then it's great - that's what it is all about in the end.

However, in my own opinion I think that the SS program is way to expensive for what you get in regards to actual singing technique. The program costs 200$ and 1/3 of it is just random scales. Further more, if you want to learn more about technique you have to pay additional money for ex. Mastering Mix, their online videos or private lessons. :-|

I said SS was a good starting point, a foundation to build on. I personally didn't like it, but like Sofus said, it's all about reaching your singing goals in the end. I do like Manning's Mastering Vibrato though. I had no vibrato whatsoever and this helped a lot.

Go, if your post was directed at me, see this reply, if not, feel free to disregard.

i'm not complaining or saying its "too soft for rock". Read my posts, there is no need to re-explain what i said, its all there.



I don't know CVT but disagree with this man anyway. I believe he offered absolutely no insight into the development of a "hard gritty" voice. but if you got results, then blessings to you. RYV has taught me how to do grit and add power. My grit doesn't hurt. I can sing loudly,fully, and gritty. But only up to a certain range (from A4-C5 it starts getting hard and i have to do it VERY VERY loudly) I am doing SS because it has pushed my range up extremely high, and i'm able to do it with no strain, no effort, and very minimal volume. BUT the notes are weak when I do it. now my goal is to strengthen them to my normal full sound (transcending tone is probably the way to do it)

because you were doing the exercises wrong. this is what i'm saying. you have to throw out all the old habits you have, stop pushing, stop forcing, stop straining, just let go. suddenly your voice connects smoothly BUT everything sounds weak and you've lost all that power you had when you pushed and the high notes sound like falsetto. THIS IS WHAT I'M SAYING. This is where I'm currently at. your old pushing habits have reinforced the training of the outer muscles that have become a crutch, the SS method isolates the muscles that are needed to perform the job and remove the involvement of all other ones. I'm sure after many months my notes will gain power, but since i'm new to this method and untraining bad habits obviously its going to sound weak at first.

you got lost at the beginning where they clearly tell you to NOT strain, to NOT force, and to let it go freely, this is what i believe is the cause as to why people say SS doesn't work, because they clearly don't listen to the instructions.

hope that clears it up

Well I wasn´t trying to accuse anyone for complaining, nor make a technical point, I know you may work with SS and get the results you want, that´s fine I think the program it´s good, but I was talking about SS strictly as a method to get a KIND of sound.

For most of what I´ve heard from people demonstrating the kind of sound you´ll get from SS I think it´s perfectly suitable for rock. Breaking the chains (a rock singing program) will get you the same results. (distortion not included BTW)

If you prefer any other program than SS to get a better shouty distorted "rock sound" that´s fine, again, I´m not doing accusations.

I guess SS could be used for a rock sound, as long as you add the support that is needed. Like I previously mentioned, I had an SS coach for awhile, and I think it actually hurt my voice instead of making things easier. I don't like the concept of holding back on "power notes" lol. It seemed like I was straining more to keep the notes quiet, when I could easily belt them out at ease with no straining. Plus I was told that the louder you sing, it makes you go flat...which is nonsense. I walked after that, lol.

Derek,

Nice clips!

From a CVT point of view you are actually never in a "clean/centered" Curbing. You are in-between modes (Curbing and Overdrive). When this happens you'll experience the rasp or what CVT would call creaking. On your c4-c5 slide you change to being in-between Curbing and Neutral on the higher notes.

Phil, I practice Mastering Mix, along with Raise Your Voice and Breaking the Chains, and I am looking for the exact same thing you are looking for. I find the same feeling with SS-style exercises,where there is a very light head voice/mix, but only by its feeling. It doesn't sound quite exactly like falsetto by the fact that it's not as breathy, but still sounds very heady In a performance setting, I can easily go pretty loud with little strain on high notes anywhere from G4 to E5, but I also live (well I switch between a house and a unit on weekends) in a unit and I want to be able to have notes above G4 sound light, but still full at a low volume. I know Brett Manning can do this because in many audio tracks in the program and even videos on youtube, he demonstrates a rounded sounding head voice. Basically I guess we are looking for the ability to utilize our voices' range with different levels of volume and intensity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtcp6yBb-nk

Check this video out. I'm pretty sure I have control over adducted head voice and falsetto in my voice, but I have difficulty making that light head voice sound fuller without sounding too full, so to say.