I know the feeling, I have bashed my head against the wall for many years witout much of a increase in skill. But then all of a sudden when you least expekt it you do a recording of yourself and you get stunned on how good you sound...

I think your main focus should be at your strenghts, and build from there not the other way around. Ask yourself, what do I do good? How do I want to sound? Whats my goal, how do I reach that goal?
And regarding vocal exercises keep the ones that YOU feel work and throw away the rest.
I consider vocalexercises more like building muscles, it gives you the tools to have a great tone but the tone itself you will have to experiment to get to yourself.

+1. My man Jens is right. Keep working and experimenting on what you have. If you quit, you'll get nothing. Simple as that.

One thing that may help you is if you get a lesson with JV, he's also a Mindset coach too in case you have doubts about your progress and such, Jaime will know what to do.

i believe strongly in the law of attraction. i dont' like all the "marketing" and "new ageness" attributed wtih it. but i know from experience and from helping others attain what they want that negative thought attracts negative results. your post was riddled with "i can't"s and "i suck" and so many negative lines. what you give out you get back. if i was in your situation i would be beginning with a change of thought, brainwashing myself to believe that everything will be fine and that results will come. i just did this with my brother who has been stuck in a dead end job with huge financial problems. he lost his job and racked up lots of debt in a month, he was very negative person. in 2 days of trying my techniques of meditating positively and brainwashing himself into believeing everyhting will be fine, he landed a job when he tried nonstop to get one in that month of unemployment with no success. i have had heaps o "unusual coincidences" that were positive, happen to me, as a result of my positive programming. email me on jiyasa@hotmail.com if you want to know more. you say nothings working so why not give it a shot?

Phil, that is so well put! If you are going to have the attitude, "I might as well give up" then you are already defeating yourself. Also, instead of worrying so much about doing every exercise out there, focus on the actual singing. Sing every friggin day. yes you need some sort of warm up and technique basis, but focus on singing and enjoy it. Don;t make it a chore. I personally have no problem with whatever method you use whether mine, Brett's, etc. just find some solid tools that work for YOU, maintain them and sing, sing, sing And DEFINITELY change the negative attitude.

6 weeks ago I decided to pray about these TV shows and focus on doing more. I haven't done a TV show in 2 years, or even mess with glass breaking. The very next day I got the Germany and Japan show, and of course I'll be on Dr. Oz today-
http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/wednesday-dr-oz

AND I just booked another show. Point is, I didn't think negative; I prayed, focused on a positive Mindset and went with the flow;)

Also, yes you could need a private coach. it doesnt matter whether it's me or someone else, just find one that works for you! Sometimes you need guidance to get over the hurdles;)

Thank you all for your great responses. I want to comment on some of the things that were said.

The thing is, it doesn't feel like I've any strengths. I listen to a recording of myself and cannot hear anything that I or that anyone else would like the sound of. If I had one strength then sure, I'd have a place to start... But I just don't.



As I mentioned; no vocal exercises appear to work for me. I've spent a long time experimenting with tone but everything I try sounds bad. I've found the one that I prefer, but it's basically a 'best of the worst' type situation really.



I agree heavily. Normally I'm not a negative person. It's just that it's hard to maintain positivity and motivation when you work hard for nothing. Also, the niggling feeling that I won't get anywhere and will not be able to forge a career from this worries me. But I do believe that maybe my mindset could use changing... But I feel there is an element of realism in my thinking. But thank you for your response and I will definitely be in touch.



I ensure I sing everyday. I spend a certain time on songs and certain time on scales... But none of it helps.

As for the private teacher thing... I'm currently in music college and we have a vocal one there... However, admittedly she is awful. She isn't even worth speaking about. Everything she says is wrong (goes against everything else I've learnt abiut voice from other sources, including RYV). Example:
1) Once a girl in my class told her "I'm straining" teacher simply replies "well don't"... Duhh!
2) She once basically told us to shout for high notes, when I brought up concepts like head/mixed voice, she simply stared blankly at me... 'Nuff said?

Aside from that, there is no other guidance really available to me... I come from a pretty poor background and despite having a full time job on top of college, I can not afford luxuries.

Is there anything at all that I can do to improve? It feels like a losing battle atm.

-Nathan

everyone has strenghts and weaknesses, you do to. If you cant figure out what they are do and sing what you think is fun, focus on that and work on your weaknesses but dont focus and pay attention on them...
Focos on your "fire" why you want to sing!
I always wanted a highpitch screamvoice as daniel heiman and similar singers,When i started singing I found out rather quickly i was a baritone...
I spent 4-5 years doing scales and exercises and i didnt improve that much at all exept for my pitch.
Then all off a sudden it was like i suddenly improved to a grade i didnt think was possible.

Nathan, have you had any other opinions on your voice? I mean, sometimes people think they are bad at something, or they think they're (for example) too fat - when they are not, and then they start some crazy diets to fix something that isn't broken.

Other thing that worries me is that do you actually train too much? Do you practise every day for hours? Remember to keep vocal rest/vacation too!

PS. being a baritone should not be a limitation.

Tell you guys what, tomorrow I'll try recording some things at college and upload the files so you guys can hear me and see why I'm so down about my voice.

Check back tomorrow to hear some... stuff...

Hey Nathan,

I totally feel your pain man. i had that problem for a long time too. It turns out that I got some good coaching from my wife(she is a great singer). I was really trying to sing stuff that was wayyyyy too high for me. I had some voice lessons with a classically trained teacher who misclassified me as a tenor. I am definitely a baritone. I was also singing stuff that was
way too high. Also, my voice isn't naturally well suited for hard rock stuff. I mean, I know I can develop it but it's not as natural. I started singing with no tension and feeling the resonance without pushing and I was feeling it in the pallet and mask. Now singing is way easy. I started singing stuff more like James Taylor and Towns Van Zant and a lot of country guys are baritones. I love the tone of my voice now. I can melt butter with it. hehehheh! It's such a relief. I cried when I first heard it because I had done recordings before and absolutely hated the sound of my voice. It was such a relief. Deep down I always somehow knew I could sing, but something wasn't quite right. Don't give up man. You will get it.

Ben

benbonewilly im also a baritone, a lighter typ but still :P if youd want a more rock approach twang is the **** for us baritones! :D

Hey Jens,

I like being a baritone. Jim Morrison is my favorite rock singer, so it helps me sing stuff by the Doors. I'm learning to use some low grit on my voice getting a little more agressive with the "angry" attitude. The wife likes it. LOL! I'm not a low baritone either. I sing a lot of James Taylor's stuff pretty easily in chest voice. I can't make it past a G4 note. I hear you about the twang. I was actually using too much of it when I wasn't wanting to. I had to actually learn to back off it a little and get a warm sound. Now I can do both. Learning all this crap is really fun to me. I always always wanted to sing and I'm so happy that I can do it now.

Thats great mate thats how it's supposed to be! :D I like being a baritone to, It's funny how much you actualy can do with your voice. low grit/distortion is a blast ;)

I think a lot of folks think that being a baritone is a hindrance when it comes to singing rock. I think it's a blessing. It's easier to be original since there aren't as many. Besides, Elvis Presley was a baritone, nuff said there. LOL! Most of my favorite singers are baritones too. Not just rock.

Phil Anselmo is a baritone, Rob Halford is almost definitely a baritone and I'd go as far as stating that Warrel Dane is a bass considering how low he can go and how deep his voice is.

I think that Axl Rose was a baritone too. At least that is what he sounds like to me.

I'm not sure what I am... I think I'm a tenor. Do you go by the lowest note or the highest? ...I THINK my lowest note is a G2...and my highest is a G5...

I think that where your passagios happen, where you feel the most comfortable singing, and quality of tone are what determines your voice type more than just how high or low you can sing. I can sing some low tenor stuff, but I'm definitely not "at home" there. I sing comfortable from G2-G4 and I switch gears from chest voice at about Bflat3 or so. Vocal range can be extended higher and lower, but where does your voice naturally fall?

Naturally fall? As far as my speaking voice goes? ...or? Sorry, I'm not good with vocal classification and stuff like that..

How high or low can you sing effortlessly? Where do you transition from chest to middle voice and from middle voice to head voice? Does your voice sound better when you sing low or high naturally? I know that the term "better" is subjective.

I start going into head voice 5-6 notes after Middle C...

Honestly, I can't even tell LOL.

Sorry for the late reply guys. Had a busy day yesterday and couldn't record. Just finished some recordings now though, had to use windows sound recorder... So the quality of recording will probably be a bit crappy (distorted and probably unclear mostly... Cannot wait to buy pro tools :P).

The clips aren't too long, a verse and a chorus, so basically 1 minute each.

I'll be honest, I've been so disheartened recently that I've not even listened to the clips (except the last one). I feel if I listened to them I'd probably... I dunno... cry or something :/

Apologies in advance for your loss of hope for humanity after hearing my recordings:

http://www.box.net/shared/ho0b6gs5z0 - In Joy and Sorrow - HIM
I thought I'd show how I sound at my low end with this song.

http://www.box.net/shared/qbozxkz45s - Superstition - Stevie Wonder.
Just thought this might be a good demo of everything, but mostly upper chest.

http://www.box.net/shared/s2pozutp23 - Cry me a river - Justin Timberlake.
Just another overall demo, probably more dominantly upper chest.

http://www.box.net/shared/iayn0rbbd7 - Moondance - Van Morrison.
Did this song recently and people said it sounded pretty good... I still am not convinced, but thought I'd give it a go.

http://www.box.net/shared/4828mvzt0c - The number of the beast - Iron Maiden (OMG!!)
Yeah... so my intention was to see how my head voice belting sounded... not good is the conclusion. Admittedly this sounded a lot better when I was able to use pro tools at school... If I get a chance, I'll try recording a clip next time. But currently its ruined a lot by windows sound recorder (and mostly my lack of vocal ability).


Okay, so thats me... I await an influx of "You're right... Never sing again!" comments... Have fun :/

Hey Nathan,

You have to potential to be a really great singer. I like the tone of your voice. There are several areas that I think you could work on and sound amazing.

Your pitch seems to waiver a lot on your lower notes on the HIM song. Try keeping your breathing and placement engaged. I think if you relax and breathe properly and don't try to force the sound it will be better. You seem to have a lot of tension in your voice when you sing your higher notes. Proper breathing and just "letting your voice go there" with good placement will help you sound better on the high notes. You also seem to over enunciate your words too much. It just doesn't sound natural on some words. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. Be more natural and conversational. I think if you just relax and let your voice go a bit you could sound really really amazing. You've got the potential. Superstitious didn't sound too bad. Try workin on this stuff and polish it and it'll be great. The Iron Maiden song is in a bad key for you. It's too high at least the high parts. You aren't yet capable of singing like that. Keep in mind that Bruce Dickenson is an AMAZING singer with a great range that has been singing for many decades. I mean he's amazing amongst amazing singers. Don't be discouraged. You can do it, man. Sorry I said "amazing" so much :)

Hey man, big props for posting those clips. I think they're very valuable for people here so that they can possible help you. Note that I'm a singer and not a vocal coach, so keep that in mind. But here's what I think:

If you fix some breath issues (which was the FIRST thing that I heard that obviously needs work) and issues with confidence, you have the potential to become a great singer, man! I listened to those clips. They aren't half as bad as you make them out to be.

I suggest you do tons of easy lip roll exercises. I hope you know what I mean by that. The reason is because your breath control isn't good enough.

Secondly, you often begin a phrase by singing it very well, but END the phrase sounding not confident. Sometimes it's just a matter of realizing that EVERY SINGLE PART of a sung sentence matters, from the onset to the final sound. A friend of mine is like that and I used to be like that. To fix it, simply try to sing those songs again and focus on keeping that same good sound in your voice throughout, even for the last couple of seconds.

If it's an issue of you putting a vibrato at the end of the phrases, which it could be, you might want to practise just vibrato on some long notes. I actually think you often break a bit when you do vibrato - you need to work on that, you really do! That's where you often fail and sound less professional than you should. Just do long notes with a slow vibrato and then slowly increase the speed.

Thirdly, which I think is related to the second point, I think sometimes your lack of confidence shows in your singing, just as it shows in your first post. So fix that, belive in yourself and you'll get to that next level. That level isn't necessarily high notes, because you can woo millions of people singing in your middle range - like Elvis and many singers did.

Contrary to what you said, it seems that all your practise time DID give something to your voice, because as I said, most things about your voice is already good! F.ex. there is an occasional grit in your voice that sounds very good and it seems that you are slightly better at singing with a bit of volume in your middle and high range than singing softly in your low range.

I think you WILL be able to sing that Iron Maiden song. I like some Iron Maiden songs myself and even though it's probably too high for you at the moment, I'm absolutely sure you will be able to really nail it one day. Actually, once again, the HIGH notes were probably the best ones! Maybe not 100% perfect, but still, quite awesome. If you want to sound more like Bruce Dickinson there, which isn't necessarily a good idea because in the end you don't want to copy anyone, you could try to darken the sound a bit on those high notes - but I don't think you should focus on that right now. IMO, focus on those 3 things I mentioned.

And you need to start liking your voice - something that every singer needs to get over. Most of us hate our voices to begin with. I did :) Now I've accepted that this is the way it sounds, even though it can be improved. Everyone has a unique sound - this is a GOOD thing! But fix those issues man and you'll say MAJOR improvements and you'll be such a good singer you'll scare people.

Again, just my opinion. Other people might say different things.

Take care,
jonpall.

I hope you didn't think that I was saying he could never sing Iron Maiden. He just isn't capable YET of pulling it off in that key. You can sing anything you want to if you want it bad enough.

Gotcha! No, I didn't really think that.

The dude really has a good voice. He just needs to learn to control it. With his self-effacement I was expecting it to be horrible. I was pleasantly surprised.

Thanks for all of the comments guys, sorry I've not been about much until now.

One of the things that interested me was the comment about enunciation... can you elaborate? How can I work on this?

Also, what exercises should I be doing for breath support? I've done loads of floor breathing and upright exercises, any more?

As for vibrato... I'm not sure I'll ever have it so I may just not try. At least, maybe not focus on it yet. I always try adding it to songs but it generally sounds wrong.

Anything else anyone can say?

As far as enunciation, I would just say to pronounce the words almost as naturally as you would when you speak. The over-enunciation makes you sound like a Broadway singer. It makes it sound like you are "trying" to sing instead of it being a natural sound.

I suggest learning to take the micro-breath before you sing a phrase.

Vibrato seems easy to do when I'm breathing right and not over-thinking it. Trying too hard to do vibrato will make it sound unnatural and bad in my opinion.

"As far as enunciation, I would just say to pronounce the words almost as naturally as you would when you speak"

i agree. i don't think it matters if you can't understand what the singer says, it just has to sound good. have you heard michael jackson? fantastic singer, but he never clearly vocalises his lyrics. just listen to the chorus of thriller he sounds like he's saying "dilla! dilla naiiiyee" it doesn't matter if you can't understand it, it just has to sound good. put more emphasis on tone and pitch rather than pronounciation of words.

Dunno, I would have to disagree with that. While you don't want to over-enunciate, being able to sing clearly no matter what register you're in and how gritty or clean you're singing is a skill that sets the great singers apart from the good singers. Try Dickinson, Halford, Dio, Gillan, any of the great ones, you can almost always understand each and every word coming out of their lips.

Other than that, Nathan, be very careful about your intonation. The number of the beast sounds flat. There are many possible reasons for that, it could be that you were not paying attention to the intonation at the time, or you were not supporting it enough, or simply straining. Intonation is one of the most important qualities in singing.

Your voice is nice, make the most of it.

James Taylor doesn't over enunciate his words and you can understand every one of them. I wasn't advocating not being able to understand what a singer is saying. If you want to sound like an over dramatic Broadway singer or metal guy, that's fine, but you should be able to do it when you want and not do it when you want.

Just in short,

I think your tone will be quite suited to singing the higher stuff with a lighter timbre. Superstition was easily the best and you were sounding pretty free. I think you sound very Tenory and after more practise in a band situation I think you will come into your own.

I didn't feel it was over enunciated (I think being able to understand all the words is very important), I do however feel as though it sounded a bit held back.

"As for vibrato... I'm not sure I'll ever have it so I may just not try." of course you'll never have it if you never try. I heard your stevie wonder take, and you are nowhere near as bad as you say you are. You seriously need to stop with this negative crap. you are literally lying to yourself. you have alot of the right ingredients down, pitch is what i consider most important, and you while not 100% on the mark all the time, for the most part you had that down nicely. the rest is just polishing to make your voice have the right flavour you want.

I understand the poor background. I grew up that way too. When I wanted lessons with Jim Gillette, I worked my butt off cutting grass to make it happen. Seriously sounds like you need a great vocal coach. Contact vocal coaches in your area and find one you like. Then do what you have to in order to take lessons with them. It may be simple things that just simply need corrected;)