THE VOICE CONNECTION
SOUND OFF

Welcome to The Voice Connection Sound Off; a forum for users of books like Raise Your Voice, Melody to Madness, The Ultimate Breathing Workout, and Unleash Your Creative Mindset, as well as a place for Vendera Vocal Academy members to interact.

This message board was created so that singers could come together and "sound off" to help support each other during vocal development and the creative process of unleashing the creative spark that occurs when writing and producing music. Currently, myself and vocal coaches Ben Valen, Ray West, and Ryan Wall are here to respond periodicially to your questions, with new vocal coaches coming soon. But, feel free to help each other too:)

This board is here for you to ask questions about my and my fellow coach's books, videos, and MP3 programs, as well as offer others help with our vocal techniques. You may also post videos of yourself and your band to share your music and ask for critiques.

Please refrain from negative comments, profanities, spamming, and inappropriate criticisms of vocal methodologies, vocal coaches, and singers. All negative posts will be deleted and subject to banning without question. I will not respond to negative posts, because, as Mark Twain once said, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” With that said, positive criticism is welcome because that is how you'll grow as a singer during the training process.


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Re: RYV in CVT terms

Jens, just a quick question about MLN & She's gone. If MLN is reinforced falsetto, how can it be full voice too?

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Because thats because some of the diffrent sound Jaime vendera has called fullvoice has been in CVT terms. When he does his slides in some of his examples he ends up in MLN, a realy good one i must add and with a connected core of resonance.

But if you would apply CVT terminology to it it would be called MLN.
MLN can sound tons of diffrent ways, from The highscreams of daniel heiman to Jaime Vendera. But a keynote to this is that im not talking about all Jaime's screams...

Man im pretty lousy on explaining this, and it took along time for me to understand how the CVT modes relate to the RYV terms. And apparently an even longer to explain it

But lets take the vowel rules for CVT and compare them to the Fullvoice term. lets imagine that we are on a highnote an E5 so we can rule out the other fullmetallic mode overdrive. The vowels that can be used to keep this mode high up in the voice is EE I Eh A Oe.
Jaime describes that fullvoice can be used on all vowels if I remember correctly, thus in CVT terms when describing for instance an E5 on the vowel O in what jaime would describe as fullvoice would be a Curbing note or MTN, but in that range more likley Curbing.

cvt modes http://www.box.net/shared/tzorc5gdvs from jesse nemitz forum.
first one is neutral- second is curbing third is overdrive- forth is edge.

Hope this clarifies some about the modes and the diffrent terminologies.
I hope you understand that im not meaning that Jaime calls all MLN, Curbing notes for "fullvoice" but certain sounds that would fall under that category in cvt terms.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

The thing is, as Jens explains, there are big gray areas in voice texture. I think Jaime simplifies it, categorizing falsetto/full voice, make the big 3 exercises and you´ll be ok, end of the story. You can experiment with tone and color once you achieved control.

If you think about it, modern "belted" singing has made appear falsetto like an undesirable tone, so curbing, OD, edge, and all their tone variations and colors are somehow "full". Maybe it´s a silly term, but it surely please singers.

Man! what an endless subject!, CVT it´s not a beginners method I think...

Re: RYV in CVT terms

I started out with CVT as a total beginner, and I'm glad it was the first method I stumpled upon

But here's the deal: You have to read the book before you can understand it.

A lot of the people who finds CVT to be complicated are the ones who haven't read the book...go figure.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Thanks for good replies. I think I need to read the CVT&RYV books again. I have very much overlooked CVT's vowel rules so far.

Is the study/research behind CVT available somewhere? I'm asking because I wonder sometimes where the "artificial" looking CVT rules come from. Pitch limits, vowels etc. I mean, CVT just says do this but it doesn't really go into theory or give any further references.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

CVT is based on practical application. It is developed from current science and mostly by observing thousands of singers. It's not until recently that CVT began to conduct their own reseacrh. Until now they have released some research on vocal effects like distortion, growl etc. They are planning on releasing more in the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJu_BQrfk3E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqqXYR07WgE&feature=related

Re: RYV in CVT terms

I believe that CVT evolved from the Estill methid which has been around since the 60's? Correct me if I am wrong, but I know Cathrine studied Estill for awhile and they use some of the same terminology. Estill based his studies on using an oscilliscope to observe the wav forms of different types of singing from falasetto to full voice, growls, loud, soft, high, low, etc.

Again, I am no expert at all on any of this. This is just what I heard. I do know that Cathrine Sadolin is a very sweet lady who is extremely passionate about teaching voice:)

Re: RYV in CVT terms

At local forum there was a typical debate about head voice and range expansion. A CVT fan said that there is no such thing as "pulling chest" and that "chest voice" equals to CVT overdrive. But registers can't be directly mapped into CVT modes! What do you think?

Ps. Go, are you samples ready?-)

Re: RYV in CVT terms

I think it's important to recognize that a "register" is only a series of notes - an interval. It doesn't have any specific sound. Ex. A4 can be sung in many diferent ways but it's still the same "register". It's important to seperate "register" from sound.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Smart to point out Sofus. BTW- I am still waiting on you to email me;)

Re: RYV in CVT terms

I agree with sofus as it´s a CVT idea, so it´s really helpfull with CVT methology, but for other singing methods the idea of registers is still valuable, even when you want to describe sound. For example, head voice doesn´t have the restrained sound of curbing, it´s more delicate and light, but they teach you how to go pass compressed neutral to curbing, but in another terms, mixed voiced being one of them. But if you want "pure" head voice/compressed neutral, you still can use it.

About the samples, I´ve completely forgot about it! I´m not even practicing that much singing nowadays so I don´t think I´ll do it.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Go,

I can see your point. Though in my experience it most often causes confusion when using the same term for a register and a sound.

It's very important to define what is meant with a term when comunicating - especially between student and teacher. For instance if headvoice, chestvoice, mix and falsetto are both a register and a sound then confusion can easily appear. For instance:

"I want to be able to use headvoice and falsetto in my chestvoice but also I want to have a chestvoice and mixvoice in my headvoice."

I know it's a bit overexadurated but the point is, that in my opinion it's important to seperate register from sound or at best defining very concretely what is meant with a term to avoid confusion.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

sofus987
Go,
I know it's a bit overexadurated but the point is, that in my opinion it's important to seperate register from sound or at best defining very concretely what is meant with a term to avoid confusion.


I very much agree with this statement. However that being said; this CVT terminology seems very convoluted and detremental. What is with these terms? They don't seem to make any sense. Granted I know nothing about CVT, just what I have read in this thread.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

John,

As you pointed out yourself - you would have to read the CVT book to understand it's terminology.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Well since that will probably not happen anytime soon, I respectfully bow out. :)

Re: RYV in CVT terms

CVT makes sense if you use CVT and I think Cathrine did an EXCELLENT job creating a systematic approach to breaking the voice down into components. I read the book about 5 years ago and really enjoyed it, but I do not personally use any of the terminology because it wouldn't make sense for me to mix another system into what I already teach. But I do respect what she's done and I know its helped a lot of people.

Re: RYV in CVT terms

I personaly love CVT, asmuch as i love RYV.
But people keep forgetting that terminology is just terminology, if you call a sound falsetto or headvoice wont change how the sound sounds it will still sound the same.
The thing that matters is that everyone using a certain terminology is on the same page as how to group and call sounds.
The human voice is capable of so many diffrent sounds, soundcolors that it is impossible to group them. Thats why when working with terminology soundexamples is a must.

Tobad you wont read CVT John king your really missing out on a musthave to your vocaltechnique collection. Almost everytechnique outthere has it's valid points, and CVT has tons

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Oh I didn't say I wouldn't read it ever. I just have a 1200 page CompTIA A+ book to study for the next month. :)

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Re: RYV in CVT terms

Hi everyone,

I am a big fan of RYV, though new to the message board, and am a student of CVT so it was really great and helpful to see this thread.

I personally like the terminology that CVT has but, there is lots of great stuff in RYV, and it has been helpful to hear what more experienced CVT users think is what in RYV in CVT terms.

Thanks everyone for this helpful thread.

Doug

Re: RYV in CVT terms

I really like RYV too and it was my first rock singing method, but I always found it too hard for me. I usually ended up with an irritated throat and a lot of frustration. The only exercise I was able to do was the falsetto slide! not for the dummy self-teaching singer I guess.