MOLS Message Board

openwheel44

IP: 67.52.226.224

Feb 20, 08 - 1:21 PM

Tank and Bladder Clarification

Sounds like the "tank and bladder" rule has had some "adjustments." A rule that cost quite a few of us a pretty penny to abide by initially but now is being circumvented?

Anyone want to explain? Or is this just an Ugly, ugly rumor?

racket40

IP: 71.1.100.230

Feb 20th, 2008 - 2:55 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Now what! After me and the other new menbers bought one. I thought a bladder was a rubber liner.

shawn godsey #3G

IP: 75.18.11.160

Feb 20th, 2008 - 5:17 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

hey phil

Tell me whats up bob told me i can get a tank and bladder for 395 dollars tell if this is right befour i get one im getting a henchcraft car its a 2008 so do i need the 1200 dollar one or the 395 one plz tell me thanks shawn

donnie25

IP: 208.192.70.168

Feb 20th, 2008 - 6:34 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Well Phil, you bring up an interesting point about the bladders. I have been doing some thinking and checking about the subject too. MOLS rules and not very explicit about the quality and/or type of bladder to use in our cars. With a back ground in engineering, I knew there had to be some sort of standards related to their safety and construction. ATL fuel cells have a short description on their website’s catalog. (http://www.atlinc.com/US/download.php?file=pdfs/Racing/DS570_ATL_RacingCatalog_2008.pdf ) You can see the different tensile strength ratings (450PSI to 2000PSI) for the various racing organizations on page 5. The Jaz cells that more than one person has in our group, I am assuming has the same rating as the RA105 ATL cell of FIA FT3 on page 15. It is a bladder by itself. But to pass our rules, it must have a shell around it. It seems that they are putting it in an aluminum outer shell and passing it through MOLS rules according to Bob. That is my take on the situation.

But now I also ask is it as safe as the old style bladder in the tank? It is obvious the USAC PSI rating is higher, which I assume my old bladder met. But my other concern is the percentage of fuel in the cell. My old tank I ran with 5 gallons fuel in a 13 or 16 gallon tank ( I am not positive of the size) If I were to use what some are using, a 3 gallon Jaz, and I put 2 gallons or more in it, there is a big difference between the empty and filled volumes. What would happen if both tanks were to be partially smashed during an accident reducing each volume by 2 gallons? Since fuel can be considered incompressible, the smaller tank would surely fail sending fuel spraying out.

And your mention of cost is probably another factor for going with the smaller cells too. As I have seen you state before many of times, is the amount of dollars being put into the cars and how it can kill the group. Well I would like to run gasoline with my new engine which will not work with my present bladder. I called ATL and asked for a ballpark figure for a custom Bantam bladder (works with gasoline) for my tail tank. I was quoted around $2000. Is that a killer?

Chris #9s

IP: 205.188.117.13

Feb 20th, 2008 - 7:14 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Good reply Donnie. Sounds like you have done your homework. I am going gas this year and just purchased one of them Jaz cells. Having a box built for it right now. I hope they are legal since I have got about 300 bucks invested already. From what I could dig up it seems we are one of the few clubs that have a bladder rule. BCRA has a bladder rule but when on gas, the JAZ cell will work as long as it has foam inside (which mine does). I guess the big question is....if a guy wanted to travel to race in another series....would this be legal?

Chris #9s

IP: 205.188.117.13

Feb 20th, 2008 - 7:42 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Well, I learned something new. You can't go back and edit messages on this board. After reading my last one I would have edited it but too late now.

The big question isn't about traveling to another series. It is about our series.

scott nalle

IP: 64.12.117.17

Feb 21st, 2008 - 1:18 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

PHILL this is an intresting topic!!! i rember sitting at the ruls metting when the rule was set!!! i asked the very question if i could use the tanks in question!if it was put in a metal encloser! simple answer!! A BIG NO! THEERE TO MANY SUB TOPICS TO BE CONSIDERED ON TYP OF METAL THICKNESS ECT,ECT WE ALL QUESTIONED THE EXPENCE OF NEW TANKS AND BLADDERS !!! NO EXCEPTIONS! NOW ON TO THE ORGINAL CONCERS SAFTY OF FIRE!FIRE! FIRE! WE TALK ABOUT THE SAFTY ISSUES THAT ARISE FROM HERE IS ONE RIGID TANK IN SIDE ANOTHER GOING TO BE SAFE FOR ALL OF US !I SAW ONE OF THE CARS IN QUESTION AT THE RULES METTING THIS YEAR I QUESTIONED THE TANK AND ITS SAFTY!I WAS ABRUPTLY TOLD IT WAS FINE !THIS AGAIN PISED ME OFF! I COULD HAVE PUT A HELL ALOT OF MONEY TO OTHER PARTS ON MY WORN OUT WOOD WEELED WAGON! HOW ABOUT I SUGEST USING WE ALL MAKE FRAMS LIGHTER BY BUILDING FRAMES OUT OF 2X4S !!!!LOL THAT WOULD BE A RED NECK RACE CAR IF I EVER SAW ONE!!! I DONT BELEVE IN COMPRIMISING SAFTY JUST TO BRING IN A FEW NEW CARS!!!!!I SUPORT YOUR CONSERNS !SEEM THE RULES BEND FOR SOME IN THIS CLUB MORE THAN OTHERS

scott allen

IP: 64.12.117.17

Feb 21st, 2008 - 1:25 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

SEEMS I NEED SOME EDTING IN SPELLING BUT THATS ANOTHER SUB TOPIC NOW ISENT IT!!

bobbyd

IP: 74.95.110.61

Feb 21st, 2008 - 6:11 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

As the rule states, tank and bladder. The old tanks that Bailey used were not safe especially after they had some age on them. The new tanks that ATL and Fuel Safe are making are certified as a SFI rated tank. (I am referring to the rectangular or square tanks.) When we voted in the new rule the tanks and bladders were $ 650. Now just a bladder for the 16 gal tank is $ 1100. Most that are running the R1 are running gas and they will need either a new bladder (can't run gas in an alcolhol bladder) or a new tank and bladder. The smaller tanks 3 gal or 5 gal sit back within the rear down tubes of the roll cage (fairly well protected). If you are going to run alcohol you don't need another bladder. If you are building a new car (or rebuilding) and need to buy an alcohol tank and bladder you may be able to fit a 10 or 12 gallon tank/bladder under the tail shell. But it will probably set back further and not be as easy to put under a tail shell. I don't know that you can get by running a 3 or 5 gal tank/bladder on alcohol. Cost is the big problem with the tank and bladder. I don't see a problem with the smaller square/rectangular bladders with a tank put around them. They still follow the rule. I'm not crazy about the Bailey tank as it is a poly type tank. The tanks that I bought from ATL are stated as being a rubber tank and I have the papers that showed the SFI testing and ratings. This is something that I reseached after everyone was starting to go to the newer engines running on gas. Phil, I even sent you a fax on these tanks when you were thinking of converting to the R1. You even discussed having a tank and bladder made to go under the seat.

There are more and more used alcohol tank and bladders available from the mini-sprint guys that have converted to gas engines. I have one for $ 500.

openwheel44

IP: 67.52.226.224

Feb 21st, 2008 - 12:03 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

This is all very interesting but my concern hasn't been addressed. Personally, I could care less what friggin' tank you guys run. Heck....I've seen cars go out on the track last year with leaky tank fittings pouring alky all over the ground that was a major hazard but NO ONE in authority seemed to care. Seen leaky fitting up around the injector area on cars letting fuel leak on the motor but again, no one stopped them from competing either. You would think the driver might have a concern but evidently not? Tells you how far these "safety concerns" actually go. Not far. Talking safety and implementing it seems to be two different things. So save the "safety" and "acceptible system" speech I doesn't hold much water with most of us. Unless you need it to convince yourselves this was the appropriate way to handle this. Anyway....The tank system is the least of your problems. My only problem is the fact that many of us switched over to TRUE "acceptable" tanks and bladders as instructed and paided out the butt. You know....the system that every other openwheel group/organization specifies or utilizes if they do indeed have a "tank/bladder" rule. What makes matters worse....We have let new members approach the tank and bladder problem as orginally instructed paying big bucks to at least do it right and originally accepted. Now...the same safety concerns can be remedied for a fraction of the cost. And let's be honest....Simply because it's convienent and cheap for the guys running gas. Isn't that special? If this is such a good approach, why wasn't this system considered way back when we went the tank/bladder route? Why wasn't the "homework" done at that time and saved us all a bunch of money. The same idea could have been applied to the larger tanks that required alky. What other openwheel groups are using this system? Does the WoO's, Allstars, USAC, POWERi or any other major openwheel group know aobut this "New and Improved" system? If it's so darned good...why isn't everyone jumping on the band wagon or is that just around the corner and MOLS is on the cutting edge? You know...like we always are. LOL

Which leads me to your comment Bobby D......I still have the info you sent me. It has no mention of enclosing the "box" with metal. What I recall is the idea of the "box" having a bladder custom made to fit it. I even talked to Canaday's about doing it to my fabricated aluminum I was using at the time and having a REAL bladder made by someone. To expensive. And yes..I considered a tank for under the seat but again......A REAL bladder system. Not this "cheesy" crap that is now being accepted. If you recall....I was told I could not use my existing aluminm tank because of the concerns of the metal ripping and sharding possibly penetrating the bladder. Which can happen with this new system if you think about it. The rubber bladders will deform but the firmer tanks you guys have will not. Plus....with a polystrene shell.....you don't have the "metal shards" concerns. At any rate...I accepted the verdict a the time.

I need some help here......Did we actually vote on using tanks and bladders or was it rammed down our throats using the BS that EVERY other group required them? Which was false. If we indeed did vote...why wasn't it voted on to accept this "new and improved BS?" I understand the thought process here....No need to vote now....Too many cars already have them. That works out nicely doesn't it?

Sugar coat this anyway you want and convince who ever you need to that this was the route to go, that wasn't my issue. Like I said...I could care less, I just don't like the way rules change at a moments notice to benefit a few.

Remember though.......Safety first. Evidently you can put a price on it nowdays? I didn't used to think so. See ya at the track.....

openwheel44

IP: 67.52.226.224

Feb 21st, 2008 - 12:44 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Oh.....My comments probably don't count. My engineering degree is only in Structural Design and Drawing.......Not fluid dymnamics unfortunately.

shawn godsey #3G

IP: 70.242.178.232

Feb 21st, 2008 - 2:44 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

ok so can someone tell me do i need to get a tank and bladder or this 395 dollar cell thanks shawn

Frank Ikerd

IP: 72.14.23.164

Feb 21st, 2008 - 3:31 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

The rule as it's written is extremely vague. I guess that left things open for interpretation as to what a "tank and bladder" is. I don't think these bladder and metal boxes were what was intended ehen the rule was implemented. But, I guess that will have to wait until the next rules meeting to be discussed? If it were me, I'd spend the extra money on a standard tank and bladder.

donnie25

IP: 208.192.70.168

Feb 21st, 2008 - 7:28 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

It appears that most of the other mini sprint groups have the same vague rules as ours. I did find this on the New Zealand groups site:

T8-6 Fuel Cells:
T8-6-1 Semi rigid crosslink polymer type fuel tanks, also
known as fuel cells, are permitted in Midget, Three
Quarter Midget, Sprintcar, Minisprint, Modified
Sprint, Super Stocks, Stockcars and Modifieds.
T8-6-2 All Open Wheel vehicles permitted to use semi rigid
fuel tanks also known as fuel cells must be fitted with
an approved collapsible insert or fuel bladder or fully
protected on all sides and the bottom by 1.5
minimum alloy plate to be known as the fuel-can.
(a) All open wheel vehicles permitted approved
integral/direct mount tail tanks fitted to manufacturers
specifications

Scott S.

IP: 75.81.33.57

Feb 22nd, 2008 - 10:37 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

I currently do not have a car, but try too keep up on all the info for when I am ready to get another one, but at the time the "bladder rule" was put into effect it was stated mandatory for this organization and for national events. The national rules only state bladders "are recommended". But as a group I feel there should be more than 1 meeting a year. one at the end of the season as it is now, and one at the beginning of the season to answer questions like these for the seasoned people as well as new commers. Just my opinion as an innocent bystander......Scott

donnie25

IP: 19.81.59.116

Feb 22nd, 2008 - 11:17 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Just finished talking with Jocko's in Iowa about getting a 16 gallon fuel-safe bladder for gasoline (MB116-G-T). Price $852.82 plus tax and shipping. There is a 4 week waiting period from fuel-safe to have them made.

THE MASTERlink

IP: 70.254.194.159

Feb 22nd, 2008 - 3:33 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Donnie check your e-mail. CDM

Greg

IP: 64.12.117.17

Feb 23rd, 2008 - 8:12 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

If you guys need bladders, I can get them for you.
16 Gallon bottom feed 6x10, Safe Bladders Inc. $790.
A little less if you get 3 or more.
Greg 1200racing.com

openwheel44

IP: 67.52.226.224

Feb 26th, 2008 - 10:19 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Talk about stirring the pot.......

When I was first thinking of going the R-1 on "gasoline" route this tank issue was a touchy subject for me even then Call me stupid for considering the safety end of this for my son and I's sake but I also realized there were "acceptable" standards and practices that needed to be met. At least there were then. But thinking back.....I'm now curious on how you guys are routing your fuel line and wiring for the pump out of that tank if indeed you are using the submersible pump system? How you guys pentrating the tank wall with the hose/wire and sealing it back up? Has there been some "magic" fitting materialize that solves the potiential leakage problem if you get on your side or upside down? Heck...severe slosh could present a problem. I know how some of the Indiana guys did it when I investigated this and it was scary as hell. To say some of their workmanship was a little suspect would be an understatement. Those same guys simply use a plastic tank, no bladder or protective metal skin...Nothing. Please tell me there is a SAFE way of doing all of this now.

Which leads me to the main concern.....If you are using the submersible pump system that has the 12 volt pump....That mean you have a "hot" electrical wire going INSIDE the tank, down in the fuel. I know they do it on the bikes but this ain't no bike....It's a race car. You know....that bounces and bucks all around which is more likely to cause things to go haywire, shortout or come loose especially when it's involved in a wreck. Makes me think of the pump wire going in the tank as being symbolic of a fuse on dynamite.

last question.....Are these tanks COMPLETELY enclosed in this "metal box arrangement" like the stock car guys do and I see advertised?

Cuss me and discuss me all you want.....but for the rest of our sakes....I hope all the safety aspects of this are being addressed properly. Originally, I didn't give hoot what tank you guys used but now I'm having second thoughts. This whole deal sounds more unsafe than what we had before the "tank/bladder" era began.

bobbyd

IP: 70.62.55.178

Feb 26th, 2008 - 10:03 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

The rubber bladder is enclosed with an aluminum shell. The tank is made with 2 fittings on the bottom and 2 fittings on top they protrude thru the aluminum tank. The cap is just like the caps on the standard sprint/midget tanks. The tanks have a foam material inside of them. We cut out a spot large enough for the pump. We use the pump from the bike (it is in the tank on the bike) and put it inside the tank. The outlet hose of the pump is attached to one of the fittings on the bottom of the tank. The wires are run thru a small 1/4" hole that has been drilled in the top of the tank and then has a rubber glue put around them so they don't leak or chaff on the hole. The R1 uses about 1/2 gal of gas in a 20 lap feature. 2 gals of gas should run the car all nite and still have some left over. This is how Allen Rupenthal of ERC puts his pump into the tank, although he doesn't use any metal container around the bladder.

THE MASTERlink

IP: 70.244.218.5

Feb 27th, 2008 - 9:54 AM

Fuel

Just wondering if anyone is using "Racing Fuel" 110 octane(gasoline) ? Airplane Fuel ? I know there can't be any additives in Methonol and we can tech that. Is there anyway to tech gasoline or are there any limits to what can be blended for performance inhancements ?? CDM

bobbyd

IP: 24.123.26.202

Feb 27th, 2008 - 2:21 PM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Rule states no oxygen enhancing fuels. From what I have been told the R1's do not like the racing gas or the hi octane airplane fuel. Allen Rupenthal of ERC said he tried the racing gas and had to drain it out of the the tank as the engine ran hot and also did not run as well.

openwheel44

IP: 67.52.226.224

Feb 29th, 2008 - 9:22 AM

Re: Tank and Bladder Clarification

Grommett, schmmomett......Still reminds me of a 12 volt fuse sticking in some sort of explosives. Any particular reason you guys can't put an EFI high pressure pump somewhere else like some of us have done? Summit and Jeg's sells the stuff everyday. That internal pump/fuse deal is the main reason I went the route I did. Scared the hell out of me and I'm not normally afraid of anything. Say what you want, a "hot electrical" wire inside a race car fueltank doesn't have a real good ring to it if you ask me.

So this "metal box" completely encases the rubber tank? I guess what I thought an acceptible system is like a regular tank and bladder system whether it be for an openwheel car or a stock car....A tank in a tank. Two ways of capturing the fuel. Two lines of defense.