Ken

Jan 30, 08 - 12:36 PM

These book reviews, any help?

Whilst we've lost our discussion "cash cow" in the form of CL and we've had a burst of good news all round today I think it's the best time to ask whether my reviews of male survival memoirs serve anyone's purpose.

I'm buying another two within the next week, so let me know whether I should carry on with reviewing them, since no-one replies and says whether they ever chase them up from the library or picks up a copy themselves.

Andrew

Jan 31st, 2008 - 9:31 AM

Re: These book reviews, any help?

Hi Ken.

Everyone is different but I think initially people sharing their experiences (either in person or in print) can help stop perpetuating any isolation that we may have felt initially as a victim but I think for long term prospects in recovery it doesn’t really do anything. We all know recovery sometimes seems like an up and down/back and forth ride but in actual fact it never is – it just feels that way. Once we’ve made the key connection between our abuse and our subsequent problems in adulthood (and in some cases – mine included – actually recognise that it happened at all, THEN made the connection) we’ve already transformed our lives, it just takes time to realise that and mentally and emotionally catch up with it. So we may be seemingly falling back into old habits or patterns but the difference is now we’re actually learning from it or experiencing it on a different level. One analogy I like is we were drowning or adrift at sea, so we made a raft out of bits of old wood to get ourselves back on land. Sometimes we can end up walking around on land still carrying the raft around with us on our back.

Also, I’m really interested in the fact that although all these sites and self-help books are part of a whole vital support network, there seems to be a general absence of discussion or even interest in the origins of child abuse, why we have it in the world and what has caused it to happen. I don’t think that anything will ever change or that an environment where change can happen will come about without that information or the willingness to learn it. I’ve used the expression before – plate spinning.

Of course a survivor recovering from abuse is necessary, and earlier on in recovery I felt that everyone who recovers from abuse is contributing to affecting the social and cultural shift needed to help get rid of it, but we’re not, we’re just revering from the abuse, and the theory that 6 generations down the line the change will come is falsely optimistic.

There were conditions and issues which created this disease or problem in the first place and I find it amazing that people aren’t interested in the origins of codependance, which is the key issue behind all of society’s problems.

btw, Re ‘CL’, I don’t feel it’s any great loss as a topic except for the fact that it serves to highlight what a deluded mess society is in re how we view celebrities and the media (codependancy again). In real terms he is no more significant than anyone else. Years after I left my school, the headmaster there was nicked for much worse but his story was considered far less newsworthy. I do have a healthily deep mistrust of mainstream media and celebrity culture in general (always have but more vehemently so since recovery). Even the formerly plain old news programs are using overly dramatic ‘american ad exec-style’ production values to look more snappy, and coverage of abuse or emotional/mental health issues is nothing short of ill-informed and ignorant opinions served up as fact.

Ken

Jan 31st, 2008 - 11:44 AM

Re: These book reviews, any help?

That's what I suspected, I'll save the reviews for Amazon's pages.

As far as I'm concerned re the origins of CSA, I am selfish but going back to whichever decadent period of history (Greek, Roman, take your pick) to find the origins of paedophilia, I would need to know how that's going to help survivors of the last century and now, before I'd consider it a good idea.

As you can tell by my tone, I don't think it would help at all, since some past civilisations' decision was to simply tolerate it.

Andrew

Jan 31st, 2008 - 1:32 PM

Re: These book reviews, any help?

The common mistake here is to say that the issue is paedophilia; it is an attitude like that which unwittingly allows the situation to continue. Paedophilia is a symptom, that is to say there is an underlying dysfunction socially and culturally which causes not only paedophilia but the mistreatment of children in general which has been going on for thousands upon thousands of years. Forget about your Romans or Greeks, they were already suffering from the symptoms just as we are. When I talked about the ‘origins’ I wasn’t referring to something which suggests merely historic curiosity, perhaps I shouldn’t have used that word, what I am talking about is the CAUSES.

Of course finding out why is going to help! How can something be fixed or healed if people don’t know what caused it in the first place? All we would be doing, all we ARE doing is treating symptoms! Plate spinning!

Steve elsewhere on this site even says; think of child rapists as having an extreme form of compulsive behaviour, like gambling or alcoholism but more extreme. He’s right, but that shows that there are underlying issues which cause people to have compulsive disorders. Just like catching criminals and locking them up serves to remove a dangerous element from society but it doesn’t solve the problem. Again, plate spinning, wiping the table with a dirty cloth. People who get involved in criminal activity are operating on a low level of mental health – there is a reason for that, an underlying cause.

I would recommend that everyone on this site and any other abuse, mental/emotional health, Alcoholics Anonymous, Al Anon, Gamblers Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, BPD, Victims of Domestic Violence websites etc start learning about the true definition, the true nature of codependancy and it’s causes and effects.

I would recommend the first place to start is a site called www.joy2meu.com

I don’t think there is anybody else who has been able to gather all the information and demonstrate it verbally or in print as well as the man who created this site.

It’s a commitment – prepare to spend at least two months reading it – it will open your eyes.

You will see that it is not the mysterious ‘no-one knows why people abuse’ bollocks that the media feed us and once you grasp it it’s fairly simple, we just can’t see it.

Author	Comment
Ken Jan 30, 08 - 12:36 PM	These book reviews, any help? Whilst we've lost our discussion "cash cow" in the form of CL and we've had a burst of good news all round today I think it's the best time to ask whether my reviews of male survival memoirs serve anyone's purpose. I'm buying another two within the next week, so let me know whether I should carry on with reviewing them, since no-one replies and says whether they ever chase them up from the library or picks up a copy themselves.
Andrew Jan 31st, 2008 - 9:31 AM	Re: These book reviews, any help? Hi Ken. Everyone is different but I think initially people sharing their experiences (either in person or in print) can help stop perpetuating any isolation that we may have felt initially as a victim but I think for long term prospects in recovery it doesn’t really do anything. We all know recovery sometimes seems like an up and down/back and forth ride but in actual fact it never is – it just feels that way. Once we’ve made the key connection between our abuse and our subsequent problems in adulthood (and in some cases – mine included – actually recognise that it happened at all, THEN made the connection) we’ve already transformed our lives, it just takes time to realise that and mentally and emotionally catch up with it. So we may be seemingly falling back into old habits or patterns but the difference is now we’re actually learning from it or experiencing it on a different level. One analogy I like is we were drowning or adrift at sea, so we made a raft out of bits of old wood to get ourselves back on land. Sometimes we can end up walking around on land still carrying the raft around with us on our back. Also, I’m really interested in the fact that although all these sites and self-help books are part of a whole vital support network, there seems to be a general absence of discussion or even interest in the origins of child abuse, why we have it in the world and what has caused it to happen. I don’t think that anything will ever change or that an environment where change can happen will come about without that information or the willingness to learn it. I’ve used the expression before – plate spinning. Of course a survivor recovering from abuse is necessary, and earlier on in recovery I felt that everyone who recovers from abuse is contributing to affecting the social and cultural shift needed to help get rid of it, but we’re not, we’re just revering from the abuse, and the theory that 6 generations down the line the change will come is falsely optimistic. There were conditions and issues which created this disease or problem in the first place and I find it amazing that people aren’t interested in the origins of codependance, which is the key issue behind all of society’s problems. btw, Re ‘CL’, I don’t feel it’s any great loss as a topic except for the fact that it serves to highlight what a deluded mess society is in re how we view celebrities and the media (codependancy again). In real terms he is no more significant than anyone else. Years after I left my school, the headmaster there was nicked for much worse but his story was considered far less newsworthy. I do have a healthily deep mistrust of mainstream media and celebrity culture in general (always have but more vehemently so since recovery). Even the formerly plain old news programs are using overly dramatic ‘american ad exec-style’ production values to look more snappy, and coverage of abuse or emotional/mental health issues is nothing short of ill-informed and ignorant opinions served up as fact.
Ken Jan 31st, 2008 - 11:44 AM	Re: These book reviews, any help? That's what I suspected, I'll save the reviews for Amazon's pages. As far as I'm concerned re the origins of CSA, I am selfish but going back to whichever decadent period of history (Greek, Roman, take your pick) to find the origins of paedophilia, I would need to know how that's going to help survivors of the last century and now, before I'd consider it a good idea. As you can tell by my tone, I don't think it would help at all, since some past civilisations' decision was to simply tolerate it.
Andrew Jan 31st, 2008 - 1:32 PM	Re: These book reviews, any help? The common mistake here is to say that the issue is paedophilia; it is an attitude like that which unwittingly allows the situation to continue. Paedophilia is a symptom, that is to say there is an underlying dysfunction socially and culturally which causes not only paedophilia but the mistreatment of children in general which has been going on for thousands upon thousands of years. Forget about your Romans or Greeks, they were already suffering from the symptoms just as we are. When I talked about the ‘origins’ I wasn’t referring to something which suggests merely historic curiosity, perhaps I shouldn’t have used that word, what I am talking about is the CAUSES. Of course finding out why is going to help! How can something be fixed or healed if people don’t know what caused it in the first place? All we would be doing, all we ARE doing is treating symptoms! Plate spinning! Steve elsewhere on this site even says; think of child rapists as having an extreme form of compulsive behaviour, like gambling or alcoholism but more extreme. He’s right, but that shows that there are underlying issues which cause people to have compulsive disorders. Just like catching criminals and locking them up serves to remove a dangerous element from society but it doesn’t solve the problem. Again, plate spinning, wiping the table with a dirty cloth. People who get involved in criminal activity are operating on a low level of mental health – there is a reason for that, an underlying cause. I would recommend that everyone on this site and any other abuse, mental/emotional health, Alcoholics Anonymous, Al Anon, Gamblers Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, BPD, Victims of Domestic Violence websites etc start learning about the true definition, the true nature of codependancy and it’s causes and effects. I would recommend the first place to start is a site called www.joy2meu.com I don’t think there is anybody else who has been able to gather all the information and demonstrate it verbally or in print as well as the man who created this site. It’s a commitment – prepare to spend at least two months reading it – it will open your eyes. You will see that it is not the mysterious ‘no-one knows why people abuse’ bollocks that the media feed us and once you grasp it it’s fairly simple, we just can’t see it.